Origins of the \'Hollywood\' Roman salute?

[Theodosius the Great]

Avete.<br>
<br>
I remember hearing from a TV documentary that the Nazi straight-arm salute was another practice adopted from Rome like the red standard (vexillum) but with swastikas added to them. Is this true ?<br>
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Was there more than one way the Romans saluted ?<br>
<br>
-Theo

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***edited to change the title of the thread in view of recent ban/breaking of rules (not by this member)***

[Carlton Bach]

When Mussolini came up with his fascist salute, he deliberately adopted something he thought of as 'Roman' (just as with the fasces). I have seen the 'extended arm' on adlocutio images, but while I assume this is a salute I don't know what the interpretation is based on. Not that I doubt it, it makes sense. In his Osprey book on the Praetorians, Boris Rankov identifies the extended right arms as the cavalry salute,<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Ironically the Nazis adopted many symbols from old Germanic myths and sagas. These ancient Germans were of course mortal enemies of the Italian fascists' role model, the Romans.<br>
<br>
Hitler seemed particularly proud of Tacitus' work on Germany. <p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

The Nazis even "stole" the swastika from the Romans and Celts, as it was a very popular design in those days and is much depicted in art. I say "stole", because the symbol's connotations have now been forever ruined by the Nazis' use of it. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i></i>

[Carlton Bach]

Back in the 30s, people in Germany used to say: He salutes Italian-style, wears his beard the English way and governs like a Hun - Adolf, the German.

Of course, not out loud.

[Anonymous]

I've tried to unearth any period documents about the "Roman salute", but found none except a few reliefs and friezes. Does anybody know how widespread it was in the army?<br>
<br>
<br>
"The Nazis even "stole" the swastika from the Romans and Celts, as it was a very popular design in those days and is much depicted in art."<br>
<br>
You have to remember that the Swastika (Sunwheel) is one of the most ancient holy symbols of the human race, used throughout the Globe. It has been used by chinese, japanese, tibetans, indians, iranians, greeks, romans, celts and even amerindians. I've seen 2000 year old german spearpoints decorated by NS style swastikas. German use of the symbol continued unhindered until 1945. Some elite Stosstruppen units used swastikas and totenkopfs even in the World War I.<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

"Some elite Stosstruppen units used swastikas and totenkopfs even in the World War I."<br>
<br>
The Death's Head Hussars were units of the Prussian Army for centuries before the SS.<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Ave,<br>
<br>
Didn't Finland use the swastika for awhile? I'm pretty sure they did during WWII<br>
<br>
<br>
Salve,<br>
Gaius Marius Aquilus <p></p><i></i>

[Paullus]

Yes, the Finns used a blue swastika, although backwards compared to the Germans IIRC, i.e. "rotating" in the opposite direction. One of the Baltic countries, Latvia I think, used it was well.<br>
<br>
When you think about it, the swastika is a very simple design and its not surprising that peoples all over the world used it. I believe the Samnites did as well, to increase the list. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

David's Oath of the Horatii was quite influential here , I think (David was a contemporary of Napoleon)<br>
<img src="http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/110images/sl19_images/david_oath_of_hor.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
However, the Roman equivalent seems to have been much looser- eg the statue of Marcus Aurelius.<br>
<img src="http://www.utexas.edu/courses/romanciv/Romancivimages16/marcus.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Paulus <p></p><i></i>

[Gashford]

Hello all<br>
<br>
I even think that prior to the Nazi use of the swastika an American unit used it as a symbol of good luck but stopped after they joint WW2 to save confusion (might be a myth though).<br>
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For a while I had the swastika from the Colchester Vase on my gladiatorial shield but found it caused too much excitement across in Europe to keep it and I painted over it.<br>
<br>
Now for the Roman bit to keep this on thread.<br>
<br>
Frequently gladiators are depicted with swastika on their shield and subligar, it was considered quite a potent good luck symbol (so I have read).<br>
<br>
As for the salute, popular painting depicting the gladiator oath and salute always tend to depict them in a 'nazi' style salute, but I think that this owes more to fiction than to fact as there aren't any primary sources of the beginning of fights.<br>
<br>
However, at the end of fights the victor is nearly always depicted holding his shield above his head, and not his gladius. <p>Graham Ashford<br>
<hr><br>
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</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=gashford>gashford</A> at: 12/31/04 1:31 pm<br></i>

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

ah, the Roman salute-debate. A previous discussion can be found here:<br>
[url=http://p200.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=984.topic&start=1&stop=20" target="top]p200.ezboard.com/fromanarmytalkfrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=984.topic&start=1&stop=20[/url] <p>-------------------------------------------------------<br>
A great flame follows a little spark.<br>
Dante Alighieri,The Divine Comedy<br>
</p><i></i>

[Carlton Bach]

I think that was the 54th "Thunderbird" NG division. Also, the extended right arm was at one point a common gesture to accompany the pledge of allegiance. It really makes sense for that kind of occasion - shame about the hijacking.<br>
<br>
Coming back to the 'Roman' salute, I did a bit of reading ands all the pictorial evidence I have been able to find - adlocutio coins and equestrian statues - show the *leader* (in most cases the emperor) giving this salute. Does anyone have Quintilian handy? Might be worth checking if it isn't really a 'top-down' gesture that would not be used by inferiors to o superiors... <p></p><i></i>

[Caius Fabius]

The 45th Infantry Division used the native American (amerindian) symbol , which still has some of the original uniform swastika patches on display in their museum in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

The Lafayette Escadrille's symbol was of the same motiff and had one as well. <p></p><i></i>