Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus

[Latinitas]

I think i have to use brass in that case No problem.

At the drawning of mc bishop i see that the disc is nielled? Anyone who confirms this?

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

The Velsen disc (the one of the picture you have asked for), not. Some discs have some nielloed decoration.

[Latinitas]

It would be very nice when i have nielloed decorations on it. Do you have some examples of nielloed discs whit a decoration which i could use for my disc?

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Yes.

This from Vindonissa (The left one):

[Latinitas]

thanks cesar!!

[Matthew Amt]

Here's another repro of the Velsen frog, made by one of the guys in Legio XX:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/frog.jpg

He also mentioned not long ago how many originals seem to have iron pins. Maybe their just easier to peen without bending!

Matthew

[PhilusEstilius]

That is correct about repairs to iron pins Cesar for some years ago I found a buckle with it's plate still attached, however the iron pin had gone and the soldier had made his own repair with a piece of copper wire. The copper was a bit thinner than what the iron had been and the buckle still moved on it's plate, the repair was made by just twisting the ends of the copper wire. This buckle was the first of it's type ever to be found in Britain and so I put it into the British Museum, it is similar to one found at Oberstimme as shown in the Bishop &Coulston book. Will put up some pics of it when I get sorted out with my picture sizes for posting

[Tarbicus]

Yes.

This from Vindonissa (The left one):

Hold on. Looking at this 'ring', it looks like it could easily be wrapped around a frog and then closed. If so, then it would explain the tightnesss of pugiones to frogs in sculpture of the 1st C AD.

Maybe...... :wink:

[jkaler48]

Yes.

This from Vindonissa (The left one):

Hold on. Looking at this 'ring', it looks like it could easily be wrapped around a frog and then closed. If so, then it would explain the tightnesss of pugiones to frogs in sculpture of the 1st C AD.

Maybe...... :wink:

Perhaps a field repair for a lost pugio scabbard "ring"?

[PhilusEstilius]

I don't think so Jim for looking at the ring it does not appear to go around the centre pin of the frog stud, and even if it had in the past the frog disc could not have come out thro' that ring it looks too tight for that. There is however the situation of was this frog found with that particular dagger from Vidonissa, or is this just a display that was put together by the museum. I think the thing we should be looking at is the style of the dagger suspension system for it is a very long tube with a large ring, most unlike the normal types, if the ring was still complete then I would say yes it may well have just clipped over the frog and this would support your idea with no leather at all.

[Crispvs]

That sheath was found in the remains of a rubbish heap and the suspension ring is almost certainly a hasty repair to replace a lost suspension ring which had originally been fitted, almost certainly of type 'B', examples of which have been found at Vindonissa.
I believe that the frogs have been associated with the sheath for display purposes, as is common in the cabinets at that particular museum, where separately found objects are associated with one another in the displays to make better sense of them to the viewer. I can think of a number of other examples, including a sqword blade whose tang has had disparate handle elements fitted over it to give a better understanding of what each piece is.

Tarbicus,

I do not believe it would be practical for very long to try to open and close the ring around the frog, as the metal would become more stressed every time it was opened and closed and would eventually snap. To that must be added the fact that where complete suspension rings of either type are found still attached to sheaths, they are always closed (and in some cased cast closed) and are clearly not intended to be opened (which would effectively count as breakage).

Crispvs

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Hello,

The pieces are founded separately, as Crispus points.

The references are:

Christopher Unz and Eckhard Deschler-Erb: Katalog der Militaria aus Vindonissa, 1997.

The pugio frog is number 1231. Finded in Breite in 1936.
The dagger sheath is number 211. Finded in Schutthügel in 1921.

The second item has been published in other works, like the monography on pugiones by Obmann.

[Tarbicus]

I agree that suspension ring is shoddy, and looks like a hasty repair/substitute. But the hinge it goes through fits perfectly. Would the original ring have been D-shaped? Also, I recently read somewhere that the sword, pugio and belt were made as a complete set (don't ask where, but it was recent and from a link provided here - probably a PDF). So could the frogs be assembled to go through the pugio suspension rings and then capped? I can't think of a more secure method to keep the pugio attached.

[Crispvs]

The hinge looks fairly normal and would have held a type 'B' ring with two hinge lugs. Most type 'B' rings have a single lug but there is at least one example of one with two lugs.

Crispvs

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Good question, Tarbicus!

I think it's possible some pugiones sheath were fitted to the frogs directly, without any kind of leather pieces.

Some pugio discs are very little, and could pass inside the pelta-shaped buckles of the B types sheaths.

Is the way that i use sometimes:


Some discs are very big to pass inside the buckles/rings, but are riveted to the frog. So, you can pass the buckle or ring to the frog, and then put the disc and peen the rivet.

In fact, there are no need to take off the sheath of the cingulum, except probably to cleen it.

The final appearence will match very close the representation of the steles.