Update on the Spatha and Gladius fighting techniques!

[Gregg]

I actually raised this topic back in '04. You can see the primary argument, and evidence, here:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... le+gladius

[Salvianus]

It would help alot if there where, to explaine some diffrent movements and attacs I have found with our wooden simulatiors we have made of the diffrent blades.

Hi Martin, I'd like to get into training with a wooden Late spatha - can you (or anyone else) give me any advice for building a waster or two, as I assume there aren't any available for purchase - particularly: are there any dimensions -especially thickness that you would recommend? I guess I'll be aiming to source ash for it.

Cheers

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Martin, I'd like to get into training with a wooden Late spatha - can you (or anyone else) give me any advice for building a waster or two, as I assume there aren't any available for purchase

Ask our fellow-member Richomeres:
http://www.finfars.de/Online_-_Shop/Ree ... tment.html

[Martin Wallgren]

It would help alot if there where, to explaine some diffrent movements and attacs I have found with our wooden simulatiors we have made of the diffrent blades.

Hi Martin, I'd like to get into training with a wooden Late spatha - can you (or anyone else) give me any advice for building a waster or two, as I assume there aren't any available for purchase - particularly: are there any dimensions -especially thickness that you would recommend? I guess I'll be aiming to source ash for it.

Cheers

Well the ones we use the most because of tear and wear on the waisters is the fast ones. They are made of plywood and cut to shape with a figuresaw. Smoth the edges and tape the whole thing with ductape to reduce the risk for splinterinjuries. Then get hold of three tennisballs (if you make a pair of waisters) and cut ONE of them in half. make a hole for the "tang" and also make a "parryplate" of a lid for a icecream box or anything in plastic. Fill the tennisball with papir maschet and ductape it all. Make a hole in the uncut tennisball for a pommel and ductape. This eneable you to use the pommel as a weapon to if you want without damaging ether the waister or friends.

Make the point on the waister wide enough not to go into the grid on a icehockeyhelmet and swing away.

This is our waister-waisters. It´s what we use for sparring most of the time. Though we have a pair of aluminium wasters too I got hold of. Then I have made a pair of rudius too but they were more complex.

Hope it helps.

[Salvianus]

Ask our fellow-member Richomeres:
http://www.finfars.de/Online_-_Shop/Ree ... tment.html

Nice work. I could see myself not wanting to let anyone mess that up with their head!

[Salvianus]

Well the ones we use the most because of tear and wear on the waisters is the fast ones. They are made of plywood and cut to shape with a figuresaw. Smoth the edges and tape the whole thing with ductape to reduce the risk for splinterinjuries. Then get hold of three tennisballs (if you make a pair of waisters) and cut ONE of them in half. make a hole for the "tang" and also make a "parryplate" of a lid for a icecream box or anything in plastic. Fill the tennisball with papir maschet and ductape it all. Make a hole in the uncut tennisball for a pommel and ductape. This eneable you to use the pommel as a weapon to if you want without damaging ether the waister or friends.

Make the point on the waister wide enough not to go into the grid on a icehockeyhelmet and swing away.

...Hope it helps.

It does, many thanks. I'll probably aim to find a middle way - something to spar freely with, but which looks authentic enough at a distance for the public. For real training, we seem likely to blunt steel.

It certainly teaches caution :-) )

[Martin Wallgren]

It does, many thanks. I'll probably aim to find a middle way - something to spar freely with, but which looks authentic enough at a distance for the public. For real training, we seem likely to blunt steel.

It certainly teaches caution :-) )

Yes! it does!

When we do public things we always do it in modern trainingclothes and explain that it is the techniques we try to illustrate not the outfits. We use steel and waisters on those events. I feel it´s better to use obviusly modern clothes than half authentic kit (Reconstructed clothes and armour, and wooden ductaped swords and shields with safety rims and stuff) to make the audience grasp the fightingtechniques instead of snigger and mumble about " I don´t think the romans had ductape or icehockeyhelmets, haw haw haw!".

We also try to get through that we use is educated guessies(sp) on how the roman would have used their weapons. We explaine how we have got to the conclutions on this and so forth. But mostly we just practice without audience. Very good tools for sparring. We practice about three times a week for two hours and if we would use only our steel swords we would have to buy new ones too often. The nicks and dents have to be filed of after every sparingbout for safety reasons and the wear is great under those circumstances.

Just my contribution to the cause!

[Salvianus]

Serious stuff!

[Roman Military History is 4 Me]

I just don't understand why someone doesn't write a book or dvd on the individual combat use of Roman weapons...I know legionairies fought as a unit, but i haven't seen one book or dvd specifically on this subject...I would definitely like to see a "how to" manual or dvd on the real proper use of the gladius, scutum, pilum, and other small arms based on historical texts not an eastern martial arts interpretation. Some topics could be:

1. brief history and construction of each weapon
2. Demonstration of each weapon used individually and with a cohort
3. Individual Practice drills on a pilla such as cut and thrust techniques and scutum strikes.
4. Sparring techniques and drills

[Olaf]

The problem here is, that we just do not have any concrete texts on the matter. There are some texts saying roughly what you should and should not do with your weapon and shield but nothing that can be considered definite, so you have a lot of room for interpretation.
1. Would be easy to do as we have enough finds to elaborate on.
2. Here we start to be hypothetical
3. Would be totally hypothetical, I am still searching for any mention or depiction of a Scutum strike for instance.
4. see 3.
We simply do not have a roman fencing manual at our disposal, so everything would only be an individual interpretation. And if you check out various vids of Gladiator combat online, you will notice that even with almost standardized weapons and pairings interpretation can vary a lot.
That said I am currently analyzing all Gladiatorial Iconography at my disposal to get a rough overview of stances, footwork and attacking movements shown there.

[Roman Military History is 4 Me]

Thanks Olaf...i agree with you...There aren't any authentic manuals found yet on the subject...however there are quite a lot of techniques developed from "experimental archeology" that are based on roman and gladiatorial techniques not eastern martial arts. I just don't want to see a vid of some martial arts instructor demonstrating "roman samurai" techniques. By the way...i just checked out your YT channel..cool as hell..I nominate you to make the dvd...lol

[Bryan]

I found this Facebook page interesting. Fight Like a Roman

It shows some basic techniques for a Roman infantryman.

[Olaf]

Thanks for the encouragement, I actually thought about doing just that when I am satisfied with my research. Until then I do recommend to study the vids of ACTA Archeo regarding Gladiator combat techniques.
The Facebook page above is also very good, though I doubt the part concerning the shield thrust. This opens your inside line in the same bad way as criticized in the otherpictures bevore. Even worse, if the defender is not as compliant as assumed here, he can further manipulate your shield away from your body since you offer him the "weak" of your shield and he has the better lever to apply.

[Sean Manning]

Thanks Olaf...i agree with you...There aren't any authentic manuals found yet on the subject...however there are quite a lot of techniques developed from "experimental archeology" that are based on roman and gladiatorial techniques not eastern martial arts.

I think that if you ask what sources they are using you will find some combination of:
- Roman Artwork (lots of problems there!)
- Literature (usually vague, even Vegetius)
- Forms or groups of techniques from 15th-17th century martial arts in Europe and China which taught shield use to skilled students (promising, but requires a lot of hard work, and 16th century Italians probably used an imbracciatura differently than 1st century Italians used a scutum)
- Modern combat sports which use shields (possibly useful, but the rules and the kit affect things)
- Extrapolation from the principles of other martial arts from any part of the world (but there are lots of different effective ways to fight)
- Experiments

It is very easy to do a project like this badly, and very hard to do it well. Finding peers to check one's ideas against, and producing a book or video, would be even harder. No wonder that it does not happen often! Right now there are scattered groups working on Greek hoplite fighting, Roman gladiatorial combat, and Norse sword-and-shield.

[Sean Manning]

Thanks for the encouragement, I actually thought about doing just that when I am satisfied with my research. Until then I do recommend to study the vids of ACTA Archeo regarding Gladiator combat techniques.
The Facebook page above is also very good, though I doubt the part concerning the shield thrust. This opens your inside line in the same bad way as criticized in the otherpictures bevore. Even worse, if the defender is not as compliant as assumed here, he can further manipulate your shield away from your body since you offer him the "weak" of your shield and he has the better lever to apply.

I think that they might be extrapolating from techniques for a round, flat shield with a vertical centre grip. I think that a curved, rectangular shield with a horizontal centre grip probably used different techniques. A number of archaeologists have assumed that the bosses of flat shields were for striking, because Tacitus describes Roman soldiers striking with the umbo, but that may work better with curved scuta than flat shields.

A lot of Roman art shows thrusts with the bottom edge of the shield, but the cave of the shield usually faces to the ground.