Disaster strikes Pompeii... Collapse of several walls

[M. Demetrius]

I blame gravity. Relentless and impartial...but constant.

[Endre Fodstad]

Gravity tends to be able to do its thing only when society allows it too, in these cases. :wink:

[jp138]

That sucks pretty bad, not only do these sites have the government to fear but the heavy rains as well, another section down. Poor gardens, what's next? Hope these treasures last long enough for my future son/daughter and I. :x cry:

[Doc]

Well gentlemen, if I may interject. The problem is not the rain or the age of the homes that are collapsing. The problem is that in Italy they cannot get their act together. They have completely thrown out their heritage or do not care about it enough to realize their country's contribution. As an adamate Italian, I am truly ashamed and disgusted about what is going on. What else is new? At this rate the whole damn city is going to go further into history.

Just today I read a newspaper where the journalist basically said that the government might as well use a bulldozer and wipe Pompeii and build new housing or a modern city. That what is the use of keeping a monument if NO ONE cares to preserve its beauty and heritage. He then took shots at the mayor in Rome about making a theme park. He said, why not rebuild Pompeii using plastic and various resins. At least it will last since no or low maintenance is required. This again is a shot at the current state of Italy. Lets be serious, shall we? How can a country who is neck deep in problems with a leader who is a clown be expected to keep up with such things. The region which Pompeii finds itself is incapable of removing their own garbage. I read recently that the amount is so overwhelming that they are not sure how long it would take to get rid of it all even if an incinerator was up and operational right now.

My post appears to go off topic but it does not because what we are seeing is a complete decadence of a once great country and its people that continues to lead down this path of negligence and carelessness. I for one am an Italian and seeing this makes me livid.

[Paullus Scipio]

Hi Paolo!

I am sure we have talked about the problems of Italy conserving its Heritage before, and at the risk of repeating myself, the problems are not just 'getting their act together', but the rather more serious one that they just have TOO MUCH culture, from ancient times to the present day. Just consider the sheer size of Italy's cultural and past - whole cities such as Florence or Venice ( how much money would it take to adequately preserve Venice alone? More than Europe, let alone Italy, could afford ! ) Then there's Rome and it's wonders, and many others - Italy overall is filled with artworks, architecture, archaeology, history, important sites etc to the point of overflowing - ancient, dark age, mediaeval, renaissance, baroque, rococco, age of reason, modern.

There isn't adequate money in the EEC as a whole to preserve it all !! roll:

Nor are these problems confined to Italy. Consider Greece.......

There is far more to the difficulties of conserving the past than mere negligence and carelessness, for if they play a part it is a relatively small one compared to the overall size of the problem.....

[Endre Fodstad]

There isn't adequate money in the EEC as a whole to preserve it all !! roll:

Nah. It is all about priorities and attitudes. The problem is not only that Big Sil Berlusconi keeps cutting the culture budget (which to begin with was pretty austere and now is at something like 0,21 of the national GDP) - this is only the symptom. It is that preservation, restoration and conservation is not sexy for politicians....or, I sadly have to admit, many of the people who lead the institutions responsible for preserving cultural heritage. On the attitude side, I have always found it sort of amusing that Italy's most well-known monument, being round and all, is surrounded by a roundabout and busy road traffic. I guess it helps bring in the tourist buses.

Mentioning Greece is also somewhat amusing. I recently read that Greek private spending rose by 30-40% from 2000 to 2009 (now, of course, things are different) but the money spent on preservation and conservation was not quite so meteoric. This is ALL about priorities, nake no mistake.

Sometimes, I think we need another large loss of cultural heritage and a new Venice Charter initiative.

[Robert Vermaat]

There isn't adequate money in the EEC as a whole to preserve it all !! roll: .

If that's correct (and it might be), than we are left with few options. Either the rest of the world (given that they have anything to spare) jumps in, or some sites are to be sold into private ownership. With the proper laws and requirements of course. But sites like Pompeii generate so much revenue (or at least, they have the potential if properly managed) that this might be a solution. At the moment, they suffer from a general lack of funds, and when the monument is gone, it's gone. No rebuilding will compensate for that.

[Vindex]

More than just the House of the Moralist I am sorry to say...

http://www.pasthorizons.com/index.php/a ... at-pompeii

[Doc]

Good point Robert.

Paul, I also see your point of view but I have family in Italy and I visit there often enough to say its a chronic problem of "who cares its old" OR "we have current problems to deal with" OR "that was the past". Or etc.....

There is money just not for that.

[Vindex]

ok...after all the understandable invective about the state of Pompeii and Herculanium what ideas has anyone got for the preservation of such an enormous site?

I can't remember exactly now (and am desperately googling to find it) but the removal of the "important" bits to a controlled environment (a bit like the Mary rose) was proposed in the 1980s (happy if someone can help me out).

Unless this happens or a massive dome is built over the remains it is going to deteriorate...and with the Euro zone bordering on collapse, where is the money going to come from? (And please don;t say UN and UNESCO - they are both virtually bank rupt too in "real" terms).

[Doc]

This is OT but it goes along with what people are trying to point out about others lending a hand to preserve Italy's heritage.

It turns out that an Italian entrepreneur Diego Della Valle has pledged 25 million Euros hock: if the Roma wants it , for the restoration of the Coloseum. According to this RAI telecast, this monument is on the verge of collapsing either partially or completely. Thus Mr. Valle wants to give this incredible sum to save it. 8) 8)

I applaud him for he is the only Italian thus far that has come out to do something. :!: All I wonder now is if the money is given to Rome, will it be used for the restoration or as pointed out earlier in this thread, the corruption will eat away at the money before it reaches the proper hands?

[Ron Andrea]

Sadly, it isn't just corruption which eats away the buying power of such contributions (and our taxes). Modern governments have so many checks and balances--often implemented to check corruption--that an army of bureaucrats, accountants, consultants and inspectors (who must all be paid) get involved before anything is actually done.

Let me give an over-simple comparison. A hundred years ago, if you wanted chicken for dinner, you went out to the hen house, took the layer who was producing the least (you knew who she was because you knew your flock), popped off her head and prepared her for dinner. Today, you go to a market and buy a cold, sectioned carcass wrapped in plastic (produced, perhaps, several jurisdictions away). You hope and assume the process was conscientiously done, overseen by inspectors and facilitated by distributors and middle men. As a result the chicken meat for your dinner costs perhaps a hundred times (not just ten) as much as it does today. hock: And we're all busy people. We don't have time to prepare dinner, let alone slaughter chickens. Therefore, chances are we buy the chicken already prepared from a rotisserie or even the Kentucky colonel.

I agree that a kind of triage must be done over what to save. And one way that triage--and the preservation--is decided is with our entry fee dollars and licensing fees when we visit these sites. In each of our countries historic sites are rotting away because there just isn't enough resources to preserve them all. Italy has the bad luck to blessed with so many sites.

Having lived in Italy for three years and visited there a dozen other times, I'm humbled by how well they manage to preserve (yes, and exploit) what they have. How inconsiderate of the ancients to stage Rome, the headquarters of the Catholic church, the Renaissance--not to mention more than their share of all the wars in the last two thousand years--inside the boundaries of a nation-state they didn't even know would exist. :wink:

[M. Demetrius]

Not just a few historical sites in Texas have been dropped by the State, and taken over by private enterprises. They seem to work just as well or better without all the government intervention. Nothing wrong with offices' being charged to manage things, it's just that the "taking charge" in a management sense is not "without charge" monetarily. Everybody who works wants to get paid.

With enough offices to check on each other, soon, there are more managers than workers, more offices than historical sites. And yet, there are irresponsible individuals who damage or disregard historical sites, even when the site is the source of their income (for privately owned sites). The second generation of owners may not have the same zeal as the first.

It's a hard question, and not easily solved. Consider just the Colisseum...that "fallen section" of the outer wall was not accidental. Those stones were removed to build other buildings long before the present administration in Italy, so we can't lay blame on them, can we? I've heard several versions of how the original flooring collapsed, but I'm not sure how that happened. Maybe just time and fatiguing mortar, rotting timber supports. The ancient buildings are ancient. If the almost-ancient people had been maintaining them right along, we'd be in better shape today. But they didn't. Here we are. And mostly, we're finger-pointing instead of clearing rubble and bracing walls, aren't we?

[Ron Andrea]

But finger pointing is what we do best. hock:

[M. Demetrius]

Yes, indeed! :?