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Graham,
Sorry, I looked at your books over the weekend and have realised that I was thinking of the 'traveller', who is pictured next to the soldier with the pint glass. I agree that there can be little doubt that the man with the drink is meant to represent a soldier.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
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Gents,
would it be fair to say that we just do not really know?
We seem to have snippets of a certain range of possible colors for both tunics and scuta, but nothing definitive. Based on this, it would seem that tunic and shield colors are largely the call of each re enactment group within this snippets.
Thoughts,
v/r
Mike
Mike Daniels
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Legio VI FFC.
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If not now...when?
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Quote:Gents,
would it be fair to say that we just do not really know?
We seem to have snippets of a certain range of possible colors for both tunics and scuta, but nothing definitive.
Hi Mike
Not really. If you just read the RAT forum on this subject then in truth what you are presented with is often snippets or sometimes half remembered bits of information occasionally supported by 'I read somewhere long ago in a book I have now forgotten'. On rare occasions you might get selective representation of certain colours ignoring anything else which does not fit.
However I was amazed when I compiled my books how much information on textiles and textile colours there really was and there has been more discovered since I wrote them and I have found other evidence in earlier works too.
In fact there may be more on this subject than on many other items of 'accepted' pieces of kit, like your mail shoulder doubling worn in your avatar for example. What is your evidence for that? (and sorry I am not picking on you) The answer is a few pieces of sculpture, no actual mail shirts with shoulder doubling have ever been found and none mentioned in ancient texts, so in that case you like everyone else have accepted a Roman artists view and presumed it correct.
For Roman tunic colours we have far more textual references, mosaics, fresco's, surviving paint on sculpture and archaeological finds. I am not going to repeat them all here as I have already worked on three published books on the subject and will be updating the material in the near future. I do not think I could have worked on three books about Roman mail shirts.
So I guess it depends on what you class as definite. Generally when it comes to tunics, or leather armour, suddenly Roman artists are no longer reliable. The problem with tunic colours especially, is that it has become an emotive issue with re-enactors largely divisive because of rivalry between various groups. As an archaeological illustrator I try to be impartial in my research work and publications and if you have read the books I hope you see them in that light.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
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Graham,
well said in all accounts and no worries on the maille doubler either. I may have tried to simplify things too much.
I am also a proud owner of one of your books on Roman Military clothing 100 B.C. to 200 A.D> and have used it as a great source in building my impression.
One of the things I like about our Roman Hobby is that the picture is incomplete and there is still much to be learned and discovered, as well as interpreted as compared to something like the American Civil War or WWII where there is a lot more definitive evidence. Roman re enactment keeps me thinking. 
Cheers,
Mike
Mike Daniels
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Quote:...like your mail shoulder doubling worn in your avatar for example. What is your evidence for that?... so in that case you like everyone else have accepted a Roman artists view and presumed it correct.
Single portraits of individual soldiers, meant to represent the actual men, are a completely different kettle of fish to large scale and generic propaganda pieces :wink: :wink: :wink:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Quote:Single portraits of individual soldiers, meant to represent the actual men, are a completely different kettle of fish to large scale and generic propaganda pieces
What happens then when they have the same gear in both ? :wink: :wink: :wink:
Eureka!!
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Dunno, but I'll think of something :wink: :wink: :wink:
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Quote:What happens then when they have the same gear in both ?
I'm pretty sure it makes the Empire collapse in just a few hundred years. Thanks for giving us that causative agent! D lol: :?:  hock:
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Regarding the evidence for shoulder doubling, true, none have survived to prove the sculptural evidence, but plenty of breast hooks / mail fasteners have been found. Admittedly, most of these have not been associated with mail fragments when found, but the example from Chassenard proves their association with mail and makes the possibility of their being a Roman equivilent of what is shown on the friezes from Pergamum (amongst others) much stronger.
Sorry to drag this OT by the way.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
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Paul Crispus wrote:
Quote:Regarding the evidence for shoulder doubling, true, none have survived to prove the sculptural evidence, but plenty of breast hooks / mail fasteners have been found. Admittedly, most of these have not been associated with mail fragments when found, but the example from Chassenard proves their association with mail and makes the possibility of their being a Roman equivilent of what is shown on the friezes from Pergamum (amongst others) much stronger.
That's right Paul and the Roman artists made a number of accurate renditions showing us what the 'fasteners' were used for
Graham
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Well I just picked up my new Blue Tunic, made with material provided by Peronis, and I am pretty chuffed with it!  shock: That and my accent almost got5 me crucified when I showed up at Wallsend! hock: Mind you, the red one was soon sacrificed to make a scarf and belt! :lol: :lol:
Good thing the ladies are better at spotting differences in accents than the guys!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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Quote:One of the things I like about our Roman Hobby is that the picture is incomplete and there is still much to be learned and discovered, as well as interpreted as compared to something like the American Civil War or WWII where there is a lot more definitive evidence. Roman re enactment keeps me thinking.
Cheers,
Mike
Amen to that. As well as making it more fun, I think re-enactment provides an eager 'audience' for research and interpretation as well as support, informed discussion and even the odd genuine contribution
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Quote:Matthew wrote:
Quote:I heard this same vague theory years ago, with a tentative suggestion that it was Caesar's "African Wars". So I bought it and read it cover to cover, specifically looking for any reference to tunics and/or colors. There were none. Zippo. I think this is another instance of speculation turned into "parrot syndrome"! But like everyone else, if someone can come up with anything solid, I will be very happy!
Not to be picking on you, Rusty!! Just trying to nail down the EVIDENCE.
Matthew
I agree with you entirely Matthew. As I was told the reference was to do with Caesar's campaign in Alexandria I read his Alexandrian Wars. Likewise nothing unless I missed something.
Graham.
Well, I think I found the source of the yellow tunics for the VIth.
The Fallacious History of Legio VI
:lol: :lol:
drsrob a.k.a. Rob Wolters
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Quote:Well, I think I found the source of the yellow tunics for the VIth.
The Fallacious History of Legio VI
:lol: :lol:
Interesting that it seems to take many elements from Dando-Collins' book on the subject for that page, himself notably lacking footnotes, but the sources on the real history page are notably lacking in primary sources for the origins and earlier history of the legion, except for works attributed to Caesar alone. :wink:
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Good lord Man, of all the colors out there, why would I make up yellow?
I have to find it, but it is sourced for real. As is the "Fake" History page, note I was VERY careful to say Fallacious. We used it for a 12 foot Legion History Scroll that we had illustrated with roman artwork, a gorgeous thing, but the yellow came from one of the hundred or so books I have here... guess I will have to re-read them all, as I can't find the reference in Caesar's works, but I did not make that color up, personnally would have chosen Green I think.
None of the fallacious was inspired by Dando collins (we put this together years ago, and I think "Clepoatra's Kidnappers" just came out recently, correct? Some May have come from the book on the X Legion, but it was so mixed up I am not sure what he made up too... and it was not intended to be sourced, and a lot of it, like "support operations" is simply made up by me. Much of the real stuff came from a number of books, etc, and looking at incidents that occurred near the Base of the VIth. We needed to fill in the History.
When I find it I will be sure to post it, but having a life outside of Rome (as inconvienant as it is) insures it will take a while to find. But I assure you I did not make up yellow... I red it![sic]
Perhaps next time I put up a page I will do Turabian's references... The Real history one is decidedly dated, and I have more and better resources now anyway. In fact I think I have it redone partially on my PC somewhere. I will add it to my to do list.
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