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hoke · 01-10-2007, 03:41 PM

Ave, my fellow rat members.

Again i enlist your advice. :wink:
I'm interested about the colors used on the legion scuta.
Were all the scuta red? :?
Red is the predominate color that i have seen.
Did legions have different colored scuta to help identify them?
also did the republican scuta have the legion "crests" (for the use of a better word) painted on them or were they a plan solid color?
Tunic color is another subject and the debate goes on as to actual "assigned" legion color e.g.red, yellow, white, blue, etc, etc or whatever colored cloth the legion /legionary could appropriate for use. though somewhere i read that the VI wore a yellow tunic when stationed in the east?
if there are posts covering these questions and someone would direct me to them to avoid being redundant, thats good too! Smile

thanks,
vale,
hoke hinson
vi Lego f

Gaius Julius Caesar · 01-10-2007, 03:50 PM

Hello Hoke!
The group I joined, the XIIII GMV uses a blue scutum, as well as a blue tunic. I am having a Republican scutum with a custom paint job done by Armillum, in Spain. As the evidence for republican scutum motifs is slim, he is designing a unique motif, to represent Caesars Xth. But sadly, it is just fantasy!

Hope you get the help you require!

Regards

Tarbicus · 01-10-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:Tunic color is another subject and the debate goes on as to actual "assigned" legion color e.g.red, yellow, white, blue, etc, etc or whatever colored cloth the legion /legionary could appropriate for use. though somewhere i read that the VI wore a yellow tunic when stationed in the east?
if there are posts covering these questions and someone would direct me to them to avoid being redundant, thats good too!

Where did you read about the yellow tunics for the VI?

Be prepared for some colourful posts, it's the one question that can really heat things up :wink: Big Grin

hoke · 01-10-2007, 04:04 PM

I'm quickly determining that i need to notate information when i run across it!

as i clear the cobwebs ....yellow was what the VI worn while in Syria? but this is all based on my limited memory. that's why i defer to this forum! :lol:
hoke hinson
secundus
VI F

Mark Headlee · 01-10-2007, 04:10 PM

Roman Military Clothing (Vol. 1and Vol. 2) gives some great period sources for tunica colors....

Crispvs · 01-10-2007, 05:55 PM

Actually, and I hope Graham will back me up here, the list in RMC 1 tells us a lot more about cloak colours than tunic colours, and the majority of tunic colour references are hopeful assumptions based on evidence which is much too ambiguous for my liking. Various colours have been seen in Roman depictions of military tunics, including red, salmon pink, white, green, pale blue and mid blue, which leads me to suspect strongly that there probably was no recognised colour for a military tunic but that there definately was a recognised system of some sort for cloak colours.

Again, for scutum colours we are left with a choice of several shades and colours and the only thing I am aware of from ancient literature is Tacitus' reference to two of Mucianus' legionaries picking up shields dropped by fallen soldiers in Vitellius' army and using them to disguise their true identity long enough for them to get close enough to an artillery piece to disable it during the second battle of Cremona. This suggests that shields were specific to units and strongly suggests, given that the action took place at night, that it was the blazons which acted as the main identifier.

I hope this helps. I would recommend reading the threads that Tarbicus has given leads to but I would recommend putting your helmet on first. This is one subject that gets people very worked up about and there are some very deeply held and entrenched views out there. Be careful of accepting anything as gospel fact unless the writer backs it up with evidence from art or literature. Be wary of generalisations too. I could say much more but you will probably find plenty of postings by me in those threads anyway. Happy reading.

Crispvs

Graham Sumner · 01-10-2007, 08:17 PM

Paul Crispus wrote:

Quote:Actually, and I hope Graham will back me up here, the list in RMC 1 tells us a lot more about cloak colours than tunic colours, and the majority of tunic colour references are hopeful assumptions based on evidence which is much too ambiguous for my liking.

Jim Bowers wrote:

Quote:Where did you read about the yellow tunics for the VI?

Hoke wrote:

Quote:Tunic color is another subject and the debate goes on as to actual "assigned" legion color e.g.red, yellow, white, blue, etc, etc or whatever colored cloth the legion /legionary could appropriate for use.

Hello Guys.

My advice to Hoke on the tunic issue would be to read the Osprey Roman Military Clothing series first and then make up your own mind from the evidence I presented. I tried to keep personal opinions on the evidence I collected to a minimum and I hoped that what I did would be seen as impartial. Although at the time I was affiliated with a particular Roman re-enactment society I certainly did not set out to prove that one colour was correct and that others were wrong or leave anything out it if it did not fit any preconceived theory. This is because I also work as an archaeological illustrator who belongs to the Society of Archaeological Illustrators and Surveyors (AAI&S). The aim therefore was to be as accurate as possible which is surely the aim of re-enactors also.

Paul is correct about the cloak colours but I would disagree with him on a couple of points. If a wall painting showed a particular colour I said so and would certainly not say the majority of the sources were hopeful assumptions. However if his opinion, hopefully made with the same degree of impartiality that I used, was after reading my books that he felt the evidence was still ambiguous then he is entitled to say so and it is clearly my duty to keep on looking for better material.

The reference to yellow tunics was I believe something which was suggested by the Antonine Guard society who claimed it was the colour used by Caesar's legionaries when they were based in Alexandria. They could not supply me with an ancient source when I approached them neither could I find one myself. I have also asked on RAT whether anyone knew the original source for this but so far nothing has been put forward.

Graham.

hoplite14gr · 01-10-2007, 08:38 PM

Graham
Yellow cloth with purple is mentioned by Plutarch I think for Carthagenian "Sacred band" and in Alexander's cavalry after Tyros if memory serves me right.

An educated guess is that people of the Area or the Period believed that color to be asociated with the military probably elÃte units, so it is not not unlikely that Ceasar used it or the Antonine Guard for that reason.

I agree with you that there is a lot left to speculation on shield colors.
Allow me an example (not Roman IÂ´m afraid)

I thought I found a variation of the white dolphine on red background in a hoplite shield on some pottery and the museum laboratory in Athens told me that actually the red remains was just basis for another color!

To conclude I think you are right thinking that a lot of speculation takes place on ancient color .

Kind regards

Graham Sumner · 01-10-2007, 08:51 PM

Stefanos wrote:

Quote:Yellow cloth with purple is mentioned by Plutarch I think for Carthagenian "Sacred band" and in Alexander's cavalry after Tyros if memory serves me right.

An educated guess is that people of the Area or the Period believed that color to be asociated with the military probably elÃte units, so it is not not unlikely that Ceasar used it or the Antonine Guard for that reason.

Hello Stefanos.

Yes plausible reasons. Another could be that Caesar originally arrived in Alexandria with no intention of staying long, but when he did have to stay his soldiers may have needed resupplying with any material that was available locally. However as you say that would be a speculation on my part and it would be better if I could find an original source to back that up. If anyone comes across the reference to Caesar's troops wearing yellow please let me know and I will be more than happy to include it in future works.

Graham.

rusty myers · 01-10-2007, 09:01 PM

The yellow tunic is from one of Caesar's works... but I read them all so long ago I cannot remember. It specifically refers to the yellow tunics of the VI'th legion.

I will have to reread them to find it.

hoke · 01-10-2007, 10:16 PM

ave,
thanks tarbicus for all the listed posts on colors. Smile

enjoyed reading :wink:
WOW! maybe i ought to read more and question less! :roll:
vale,
hoke hinson,
secundus
VI F

Tarbicus · 01-10-2007, 10:52 PM

Pleasure.

My own personal take on the tunic is any colour for off-duty or when they weren't at war, like any civilian but with the military belt to maintain their status. Under war conditions and in armour, red. Not because of reasons like "it hides the blood" (which I think, given the way they were very proud of their scars, would have also proudly been shown for all to see) but because it's the colour of Father Mars, along with artistic representations of what are probably soldiers in murals and mosaics. However, that's only my current opinion, but I still see the case for military tunics under any conditions to be various colours.

Scuta, however, a different story altogether so far, and I feel comfortable that each cohort could have had its own colours for distant identification. The fact is we just don't know enough yet, and Civil War re-enactors (ECW and ACW) don't realise how easy they have it.

hoke · 01-10-2007, 11:10 PM

ave tarbicvs,

this i know, having been and still engaged in C.W. for many years. :roll:

i find the roman world much more intriguing and amicable! :wink:
vale,
secundus,
hoke hinson
VI F

Mark Headlee · 01-11-2007, 03:14 AM

But try doing American Civil War authentically, especially Confederate, any you'll see its not all that easy...but I will agree it is easier than Roman, but Roman requires so much more research..of which I rather enjoy!

M. Demetrius · 01-11-2007, 04:01 AM

Tarbicus said:

Quote:Under war conditions and in armour, red. Not because of reasons like "it hides the blood"

Well, there IS that account of the cohort caught behind the Dacian lines, whose Primus Pilus Centurio requested his red tunic be brought just before the battle. They were surrounded on two sides by 6,000 Dacian Falxmen, and pressed from the rear by Parthian cataphracts and on the flank by Parthian horse archers. After defeating and utterly routing the enemy, another centurion asked, "Why did you ask for your red tunic?" To which the Primus replied, "So you wouldn't be afraid if I were wounded, and my blood showed through my white one."

Just then, a scout rushed breathlessly up to the command tent, and said, "Centurio! The Parthian horse archers have regrouped and they have been joined by nearly a thousand cataphracts, and the falxmen have regrouped. There are at least 15,000 fresh heavy infantry advancing from the south, and they've set fire to the forest on the east flank, and the wind is blowing toward us...in an hour the fires will reach our camp!" With hardly a twitch in his eyebrow, the Primus said, "Bring me my brown braccae."

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