Scutum detailing

[M. Demetrius]

Steve,
From what little I know, the only scutum pattern that can fairly firmly be connected to a known legion is for Leg XIV GMV, and that's from a grave stone which mentions the legion the deceased had served in. While that does tell us fairly convincingly that the Leg used that pattern, it doesn't automatically follow that that was the ONLY pattern used by that legion, though that view makes sense. That pattern is the one that Deepeeka sells as its "standard" scutum.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well I can't say how much i have invested, as I will sound a fool, but to me what I have spent is quite a serious figure, personally! But it seems that there is a variety of wings represented on various scutums! Where do you draw the line? Some will be more similar than others? :? ? ?

Regards, and have a Merry Christmas all, including those on the other side of the pond! ) )

[caiusbeerquitius]

Generally, it would be quite interesting to find out if shield devices in the Roman army were uniform at all. It is quite hard to find evidence for a uniformity of shield devices, even within units of the size of, say, a cohort. I think it is quite possible that shield devices were, like in Greek armies, rather individual. That does not rule out that the shield devices had a lot in common within units. Maybe the basic colour, or certain devices like the legion´s symbol or so.

[Tarbicus]

If you want a nice collection of scutum emblems, get a copy of [amazon]The Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome[/amazon], by Phil Barker. It has 22 line drawings, made from sculptural examples of early imperial scuta. It also has more of oval curved scuta, clipea, and late Roman examples.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Jorge at armillum waited for ages for a copy from Amazon. Eventually he went with another supplier, as I am still waiting for my Republican Scutum!

Guess it won't be in my Xmas Stocking!

[Caballo]

Tarbicus is right- The Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome(US) (UK) (DE) (CA), by Phil Barker is a great source.
Quite a number on abebooks in the UK, Australia, and Canada.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... 2&sortby=2
starting at US$11.77 from Caliver Books. Well worth the price!
Cheers

Caballo

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I will have to get a copy eventually! I could have chosen my own design if I had one now! But for now, must get to work again, and pay the bill's! This agency lark is for the birds!

[Steve Schonberger]

Thanks for the pointer. Amazon doesn't stock the Phil Barker book right now, but one of their resellers has it for $18 plus shipping. A copy shipped from the cheapest Abe Books listing would definitely cost more with shipping from the UK. If I get impatient I can use the Legio XIV GMV pattern, or maybe make up my own. It's nice to know that there's plenty of room for creativity there.

[M. Demetrius]

Google and find Roman reenactors of different legions and look at what they're doing, then make up your own if that's your plan. Nobody knows what most of them looked like. Find something that suits you, and don't look back! Several legions have really attractive blazons.

It matters, though, which time period you've chosen, as to what was more likely used, so check with the "same era" guys as you are portraying...in other words, don't use a Late Roman pattern on a Republic scutum, and it will be ok. Or, that might be ok. You're in charge. You do it how you like.

[caiusbeerquitius]

I think I'll go with the copper rivets to attach the boss, since I already have a bag of them. (I had no idea that nails would also be historically correct. That original is quite a cool thing to have.)

The nails are AFAIK not "also correct", but they are "correct" vs "not correct" for the rivets.

[Caballo]

Hi
"The nails are AFAIK not "also correct", but they are "correct" vs "not correct" for the rivets"

From Simon James "Dura Europas

" Most of the bosses have four holes for rivets spaced equidistantly round the flange...those rivets which survive have broad flat or domed heads...it is unknown whether the rivets were simply hammered over behind the board, or whether their shanks were pierced to take split pins allowing easy removal of the boss for maintenance (Oldenstein 1976...boss B from Mainz has two such rivets in situ)"

In the exhibits 590 (circular copper alloy boss) has corroded iron rivets with heads 19mm in diameter, which attached the iron grip bar.
595 (again a circular copper alloy boss) contains a dome headed copper alloy rivet similar to 590.
597 (again a circular copper alloy boss) has iron rivets.

I've never seen a re-enactor put in the split pin option, but they existed. Your chance for a first?

Looks like rivets, bent nails, and split pins- in copper or iron- are all have surviving evidence though. Lots of choice for you!

Cheers


Caballo

[Peroni]

I've never seen a re-enactor put in the split pin option, but they existed. Your chance for a first?

You have Paul, you may not have looked that closely, but you carried a shield like that this year at Colchester!

The Ermine Street Guard use this method on their shields. :wink:

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

What's a split pin, please?

[Steve Schonberger]

What's a split pin, please?

I had to Google that myself. It's the same thing as a cotter pin.

The ability to remove the boss, for maintenance, replacement, or whatever, appeals to me. But I have no idea how I'd drill a hole in a rivet to accomodate a split pin. That seems like a job requiring specialized tools, techniques unfamiliar to me, or both.

[caiusbeerquitius]

I meant these:

Better make some. These are quite visibly modern production...
But, I would prefer the nails, for for them there is ample evidence.

Most of the bosses have four holes for rivets spaced equidistantly round the flange...those rivets which survive have broad flat or domed heads...it is unknown whether the rivets were simply hammered over behind the board, or whether their shanks were pierced to take split pins allowing easy removal of the boss for maintenance (Oldenstein 1976...boss B from Mainz has two such rivets in situ)"

In the exhibits 590 (circular copper alloy boss) has corroded iron rivets with heads 19mm in diameter, which attached the iron grip bar.
595 (again a circular copper alloy boss) contains a dome headed copper alloy rivet similar to 590.
597 (again a circular copper alloy boss) has iron rivets.

These objects may have been rivets, but they are not rivets, because S. James calls them rivets.
In Illerup and Nydam etc. basically all these "rivets" are nails, fastened in the same way as to be seen on the LaTène shield in Connolly´s Greece and Rome at War, or the same nails cut off, and then fixed with rectangular washers.
Literature:
- J. Ilkjaer, Illerup Adal, vols. 9 and 10, Die Schilde, Moesgard, 2001.
- C. Engelhardt, Thorsbjerg Mosefund, Copenhagen, 1863.