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01-25-2005, 11:31 AM

You have to wonder about the title of the series - 'Building the Impossible'. If it's impossible, why are you trying to build it? 
 
They then wonder if the Romans could really have built such an engine, to which one can only reply "Actually, they made the whole thing up and then put fake shot at siege sites to confuse later historians and archaeologists... obviously." 
 
There was a similar programme in which they reconstructed a couple of 13th century trebuchets - one with a fixed counterweight and wheels, one with a swinging counterweight and no wheels. The aim to to try to recreate War Wolf, a giant siege engine used by Edward I in Scotland. Even though the fixed weight trebuchet was patently the more effective and accurate - and in its design took into account aspects of the siege that the counterweight version did not - they said at the end of the programme that War Wolf was clearly a swinging counterweight trebuchet. Why?! Homo Homini Lupus Every Man is a Wolf to Another Man

FlaviusCrispus · 01-25-2005, 02:34 PM

<<Erm..just nitpicking, but.. 
Is a cheiroballistRa (not cheiroballista) the Greek word for manuballista? 
I'm not sure what the Greek word for carroballista is, though>> 
 
Thanks for that correction, Valerius-- as I pointed out, I'm not the unit's artillery expert. Warry shows a fairly large-looking bolt-thrower with an arched central span and calls it a "cheiroballista" (no "r"), and I was going off him. Caius informs me that you are correct-- what we have is a "carroballista," a ballista big enough to require transport on a fairly large cart. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/25/05 3:35 pm

John M McDermott · 01-25-2005, 07:57 PM

Someone should lay out the formula for "spans" so the uneducated will know what they mean. As I am not sure myself how the formula works, I am asking someone else to do it.

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 01-26-2005, 12:07 AM

I'll second that motion... Can anyone help us out? Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica

FlaviusCrispus · 01-28-2005, 04:26 AM

SUCCESS!! 
 
First test-firing of the Leg VI Carroballista, "Taurus Magnus." All the more pressure, since we were being FILMED for the History Channel's "Mail Call" TV show, and we really had no idea whether the thing was going to work. 
 
Not only does it work, it works BEAUTIFULLY! Easily achieved a 120+ yard throw with a four-foot wooden bolt and a heavy iron point, with the spring coils set only on the FIRST NOTCH, and the slider winched only 2/3 of the way back! 
 
Better still, we hit the target Mail Call set up, a large inflatable teddy bear with an "I Love You" heart on its chest, DEAD CENTER (after bracketing it a few times). Nothing quite so satisfying as watching the bolt go clear through the thing, and watching it slowly collapse. 
 
With a little tweaking hear and there, and cranking the coils to their max, we should be able to easily reach the theoretical limits (600 yards or more). And with the incredible accuracy of this machine, we ought to be able to pick a pumpkin off a post at that distance, with a little practice. 
 
Whew, what a day. I stand amazed at what ancient engineering could achieve. Photos and MPEG files should be on the way soon on the LEG VI website. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Leg VI VPF 
CA, USA 
 
www.legionsix.org Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/28/05 5:30 am

John M McDermott · 01-28-2005, 06:45 PM

We also test shot our 4-span a week ago. We got 100 ft. on the first notch with the string drawn back about half way. Sister catapults have achieved 500 yards on maximum settings. This was using polypropelene rope. I am hot the trail of finding horsehair in bulk. Everything I hear about horsehair points to it being superior in nature. 
 
Shooting a 9-span should require some safety measures. Len Morgan advised me if an arm breaks, it comes around like a flail and can do nasty damage to anyone in its path. 
 
We should organize a North American Roman Artillery organization. There are others who possess or have built artillery here in the US. I recall some fellows in Minnesota building a ballista and getting interesting results. An organization would help with establishing proper safety procedures, exchanging shooting data and other information. Also, we could exchange source information for for pesky stuff like the horsehair rope mentioned herein.

FlaviusCrispus · 01-28-2005, 08:44 PM

Ave John! 
 
I, too, am not exactly sure what a "span" means re. Roman artillery-- here I was going off things various folks have told me. Caius at first called Taurus Magnus a 9-span, then more recently said it was more of a six-span. So let me just give the dimensions: The main slider box is just over nine feet long; the arched "kamerion," or main top spar, and the "ladder" bottom spar are each four feet across; the two two spring field frames, each about 16 inches long and a foot across when loaded, thus sit about 5 feet apart from center-point to center-point; with the "bow" arms attached and at "rest" position, they measure about 6-7 feet across tip-to-tip. The machine does look a little "bull-like" when sitting at rest, the two swing arms resembling horns. 
 
We were indeed very worried about safety on this shoot and took the appropriate precautions, although we repeatedly had to warn the film crew to stay away from the swing arms as we cranked the slider back. It was eye-popping to watch the two steel arms flexing visibly under the stress as the slider moved back. If the bow string had snapped and someone was standing too close to an arm, it could have killed him in very nasty fashion, maybe even cut him in half. 
 
At these stress levels, pieces of the thing could very well break and go flying around in very dangerous fashion. We've thus made a rule that anyone operating the machine needs to be wearing full body armor and helmet. 
 
And this was on the lowest tension setting, and not even with the slider at full crank. I look forward to testing Taurus to something close to its theoretical maximums, but I'm not sure my nerves can take it... 
 
I like your idea for the NARAA! Let's discuss it some more, maybe pull in the Oregon team and the one back east. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/29/05 12:41 am

Caius Fabius · 01-28-2005, 11:24 PM

As a continuing member of the U.S. Army Field Artillery Association, I have suggested that the "Loyal Train" chapter for re-enactors and historians be opened to include pre-cannon types of artillery as well as the more modern types. The annual competition is currently limited to black powder cannon but we have considered showing up with a carrobalista and crew in Late Roman outfit at the 2005 competition. I am not sure we could compete in the long range events, but we could easily compete in most of the events, (okay, probably not the cannister event either...) 
 
The definition I have for a "span" is: The distance from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger when the hand is fully extended, formerly used as a unit of measure equal to about nine inches (23 centimeters). "Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=caiusfabius>Caius Fabius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORVM/files/C%20Fabius%201988b.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/29/05 4:39 am

**Robert Vermaat** · 01-29-2005, 05:36 PM

Bible, I samuel, vs. 17: 
"And there went out a champion from the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span." 
 
What I can find about a span is that it ideed measured about 25 centimetres. 
So how long was a cubit? Tailors today still use a cubit of 69 centimeters, but there are several possiblities for the ancient/biblical cubit. 
 
The common cubit is 5 palms, the holy cubit is 6 palms and the geometrical cubit 6 times the common cubit, hence 30 palms. 
Others hold the common cubit to be 6 palms, the holy cubit 12 palms and the geometrical cubit 36 palms. 
A palm measures 4 fingers, around 8 to 9 centimetres. Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]

FlaviusCrispus · 01-30-2005, 02:46 AM

Salve, Valerius-- 
 
OK, so I guess a kind of understand what a "span" is-- I think. But when we speak of a "four span" or a "six span" catapult, what are we measuring? The length of the machine? Distance across the arms? Distance between the skeins? Length of the arrow? What? 
 
T. Flavius Crispus

aitor iriarte · 01-30-2005, 11:28 AM

They refer to the lenght of the arrow (OMG )!! 
Let's see, the inner diameter of the holes for the springs on the frame (or that of the washer if we accept the commonest modern practice) must be the ninth part of the intended missile's length and that measurement will be the basis for the dimensions of the whole machine. 
Keep in mind that the aforesaid relation is only valid for the wooden-framed arrow-shooting euthytone catapults. The Roman metallic-framed advanced arrow-shooters are, technically speaking, palintone ballistae and you cannot apply to them the same rules. Therefore, the relation of the arrow's length to the hole for the spring must remain, up till now, totally speculative... 
 
Now I must return to the arid study of laws... 
 
Aitor Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=aitoririarte>Aitor Iriarte</A> at: 1/30/05 4:28 pm

01-30-2005, 05:46 PM

Crispus - Great to hear on your successes with your Chirobalistra (or however it's gonna be spelled ) 
 
Do you know when your Mail Call episode may air? 
I'm eager to see it, and new Mail Call episodes. One of my favorite programs. 
 
Legion XXIV ( www.legionxxiv.org ) has 3 artillery pieces, a Scorpio, Ballista and an Onager. The Scorpio is a bunch of fun to fire off, be it nerf bolts or actual bolts Gallio has made for it. We've been able to shoot that Scorpio some distance. 
You can see a picture of me and Quintius loading up the Scorpio and Onager at Roman Days Northeast '04.

FlaviusCrispus · 01-31-2005, 05:13 PM

Avete Andy et al! 
 
OK, here are some early photos from the Ballista shoot. I'll have more and better in the near future. 
 
<img src="http://www.legionsix.org/ballista.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Caius Man, who designed this remarkable piece and guided us through its construction, is standing in the foreground, holding a bolt. The ballistari crew consists of Optio Flavius (me), looking a little worried as the slider cranks back, Marius (Greg Douglass) manning turnstyle in foreground, Scaevola (Ron Glass) on turnstyle in background, and Florentius (Jared Fleury), behind them as the sighting / firing officer. 
 
Here's a shooter's view up the track: 
 
<img src="http://www.legionsix.org/uptrack.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
And the moment of firing: 
 
<img src="http://www.legionsix.org/loose.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Getting ready to fire again: 
 
<img src="http://www.legionsix.org/cranking.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Again, what impressed me most about this piece is its accuracy. Just put the target in the little arch on the top frame, estimate your elevation and windage, and wham! Dead on target. It's a real thrill to see an arrow that big flying straight and true as, well, an arrow. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Leg VI VPF 
CA, USA 
 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/31/05 6:23 pm

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 01-31-2005, 11:04 PM

Hi Guys, 
If the NARAA does indeed get started, please count me among your number! I hope to be finished building my catapulta by the end of this summer (hopefully), and would be glad to be a member of such an organization. Roman artillery is where my purest fascination with reenacting ancient Rome lies! Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica

John M McDermott · 02-02-2005, 01:04 AM

That is one bad mama jama. 
 
What did you use for the springs? 
 
How can you post pictures like that. I would like to post mine too. 
 
John McDermott

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