Varro - leather armour?

[Sean Manning]

So there is still no evidence for Roman leather armour except Dura Europos.

Well, I think this passage is evidence (maybe Varro was dimly remembering tube-and-yoke armour) but its not very good evidence and other interpretations are possible.
The plain sense of this passage is that the breastplates were made from rawhide straps ... its just that Varro could be confused, since we know that bronze pectoralia were held on by straps and used by Romans, and I don't know of any other evidence for breastplates of rawhide straps in the Roman republic except for that Mars of Todi statue.

Greek, Roman, and Mesopotamian thinkers were very impressed when two words sounded similar ... its a basic principle of ancient dream interpretation for example. So as I understand it, when they give a derivation of a word, its usually a just so story to connect two similar-sounding words like lorica and lorus.

[Forty-One]

Greek, Roman, and Mesopotamian thinkers were very impressed when two words sounded similar ... its a basic principle of ancient dream interpretation for example. So as I understand it, when they give a derivation of a word, its usually a just so story to connect two similar-sounding words like lorica and lorus.

Exactly this! Much of de lingua Latina is composed of similar rather dubious-sounding word association games. Just read his etymologies of the other "military words" in the longer passage cited up-thread. For example, to Varro gladius sounds a bit like clades and a sword can be pretty "disastrous" so that's where the word gladius must come from, by Jove! The real etymology of the word gladius is apparently Celtic. Similarly scutum according to Varro is so called because it is made of "split wood". The word scutum is in fact more likely related to the Sanskrit (and hence proto Indo-European) word for "a cover". The etymology of lorica in the Oxford Latin Dictionary cites Varro but is listed as "dubious". I think trying to mine Varro for hard evidence is pushing the source a bit too far. Interesting, though, that the Roman name for a mail shirt may well have been a "Gallic"! Is lorica hamata ("hooked cuirass") actually a real Roman term?

+++ Harry +++++++++++++++++++++

"Ramming speed!"

[martijn.wijnhoven]

The interpretation of historical texts can be a slippery slope, especially for the modern mind that hasn’t got the same context as a contemporary reader. A modern example of this: I can refer to my car with the words “my wheels”.

Anyway, I encountered an (not so modern) English translation of this section. It reads:

Lorica ‘corselet’, because they made chest-protectors from lora ‘thongs’ of rawhide; afterwards the Gallic corselet of iron was included under this name, an iron shirt made of links.

[size=85:wc2mu5f9]1938 Varro
On the Latin Language. Books V.-VII. Translation by Roland G. Kent, London, pp. 111 & 113.[/size]

[Sean Manning]

Interesting, though, that the Roman name for a mail shirt may well have been a "Gallic"! Is lorica hamata ("hooked cuirass") actually a real Roman term?

+++ Harry +++++++++++++++++++++

"Ramming speed!"

I think lorica hamata is a 20th century coinage based on some passages in Latin literature which describe armour using words like hamis (with hooks). I think there is one in the Aeneid ... you might be able to find references on these forums or in Bishop and Coulston. Probably Romans called all armour lorica most of the time ... who knows what the technical term was, but Varro's Gallica is the only one I know of which is attested!

[D B Campbell]

I think there is one in the Aeneid ... you might be able to find references on these forums or in Bishop and Coulston.

It's Aeneid 3.467 and 5.259-260, if you're interested.

[jkaler48]

So should reenactors be using the term Lorcia Gallica instead of Lorica Hamata ?

[Graham Sumner]

Hi

Two other examples to ponder over.

R.J. Forbes Studies in Ancient Technology Vol V. say's...
" The army remained the largest consumer of leather. L. Calpurnius Piso Caesonius went to Macedonia with extra-ordinary powers (58-55 B.C.) to requisition all the cattle or as much of it needed to provide the equipment for the army in the form of hides to be shaped into armor, shields and horse trappings". The source given is Cicero, In Pis. 36.87

The second is Pliny NH Book XI xxvii. 78

"So far our habits departed from wearing a leather cuirass that even a robe is considered a burden".
"in tantum a lorica gerenda discessere mores ut oneri sit etiam vestis" Loeb edition.

However I very much doubt either source will provide a eureka moment in spite of what they appear to indicate at first glance from the English translations.

Graham.

[ScipioAsina]

I apologize for the rough translations; my mind's been fried with translating Cornelius Nepos.

The first quote is from Cicero's Against Piso:

...illam armorum officinam ecquid recordaris, cum omni totius provinciae pecore compulso pellium nomine omnem quaestum illum domesticum paternumque renovasti?

"Have you any memory of that workshop of arms where, with all the cattle in the province collected, nominally to obtain hides, you restored all the profits of your house and father?"

Perseus also has a 1891 translation if you want to read the whole thing.

In regards to the second quote from Pliny's Natural History:

...in tantum a lorica gerenda discessere mores, ut oneri sit etiam vestis.

The Loeb translation is quite literal, but it doesn't make sense in context. I'm admittedly not skilled with Latin, but this is how I would render it:
"We have so departed from our customs that, far from wearing armor, even a robe is a burden. "

In any case, there's nothing in here about leather; some older Latin dictionaries identify lorica as "a leather cuirass," but it might be better understood as just "armor."

[caiusbeerquitius]

Cardiophylakes in general were suspenced by leather stripes,but this particular cuirass has such complexity that perhaps would excuse a name derived from them. But they don't seem to have ever been that common.

Hmm.There are actually not that few of findings.
[url:3i0428zm]http://books.google.de/books?id=L1HNPWmBUzYC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=kardiophylax&source=bl&ots=cj6c8JUmZN&sig=6xhcFoZN654DYKrIx4-TJPO-h8M&hl=de&ei=Lc3BTKq9NsGLswaOgKXRCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=kardiophylax&f=false[/url]

[Sean Manning]

So should reenactors be using the term Lorcia Gallica instead of Lorica Hamata ?

I suppose reenactors down to about 100 CE might call their mail "Gallica". Varo says that "lorica" and "Gallica" can both mean a mail shirt, although both words have other meanings. But unless we have writings by soldiers that call armour "Gallica", I don't think we can be sure if this was a common expression, or just something that antiquaries like Varro remembered.

The Cicero and Pliny quotes are a good example of the dangers of trusting technical details in translations.

[Paullus Scipio]

The Cicero and Pliny quotes are a good example of the dangers of trusting technical details in translations.

To bring the matter 'full circle' as it were....whether making an early 'cardiophylax' or even a 'lorica segmentata' ( neither term used by Romans :wink: ), you needed a considerable amount of leather for all the straps etc...... ( are mail or scale the only types that DON'T involve considerable quantites of leather?)

[D B Campbell]

... 'cardiophylax' or even a 'lorica segmentata' ( neither term used by Romans :wink: ) ...

Surely a mistake: kardiophylax is exactly what Polybius calls the pectorale.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Pol. 6, 23, 14

?? ??? ??? ?????? ???????????? ??????? ??????????? ????? ??????, ? ???????????? ??? ??? ??? ???????, ??????? ?? ????????????, ??????? ?????? ??? ??????????

Loeb (Lacus Curtius):

The common soldiers wear in addition a breastplate of brass a span square, which they place in front of the heart and call the heart-protector (pectorale), this completing their accoutrements;

[Paullus Scipio]

Precisely! 'kardiophylax' was Polybius' Greek term/translation for the Latin (which is what the Romans spoke) 'pectorale'.......... D !

[D B Campbell]

Very funny -- you implied that, like lorica segmentata, kardiophylax had no ancient authority. Romans spoke Greek, too! :roll: Anyway, we have strayed from the point at issue, for which I apologise.