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Varro - leather armour? - Dan Howard - 10-02-2010
Could anyone take a stab at translating this passage from De Lingua Latina [Book V, 24, 2] ?
Lorica, quod e loris de corio crudo pectoralia faciebant; postea subcidit gallica e ferro sub id vocabulum, ex anulis ferrea tunica
I'm wondering whether I'm correct in thinking that Varro is saying that Romans used to wear rawhide (corio crudo) armour before adopting mail.
Re: Varro - leather armour? - zugislander - 10-02-2010
The first part does seem to indicate that they originally had rawhide armor, in his opinion/records. I wonder if that refers to Linothorax style armor? I am trying a rawhide face on a shield right now and having trouble with it bending on its own. I can not imagine what that would have been/worn/constructed like.
Cordially,
Michael
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Sean Manning - 10-02-2010
Quote:Could anyone take a stab at translating this passage from De Lingua Latina [Book V, 24, 2] ?My Latin is so-so, but I would render that "armour, which chestplates (pectoralia) they used to make from straps (e loris) and raw hides (de corio crudo); after a while a tunic of little iron rings (made from Gallic iron) fell under the same word." Crudus -a -um is literally "bloody" and by extension "raw, immature, unprepared". Pectoralia is spelled a little oddly, and I'm not sure what the nom/acc "quod" agrees with.
Lorica, quod e loris de corio crudo pectoralia faciebant; postea subcidit gallica e ferro sub id vocabulum, ex anulis ferrea tunica
I'm wondering whether I'm correct in thinking that Varro is saying that Romans used to wear rawhide (corio crudo) armour before adopting mail.
A few word lists say that galea -ae can be a leather helmet, possibly following Isidore Origines 18,14
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Dan Howard - 10-02-2010
hmm. This passage is also commonly used to argue that the Romans thought that the Gauls invented mail. This doesn't seem to be the case. Varro is saying that the iron used is Gallic, not the mail itself.
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Paullus Scipio - 10-03-2010
I would suggest the 'Gallic iron' in this instance refers to drawn wire, of which the rings were made. That mail was a Gallic invention seems to be all but certain from the earliest archaeological finds. Since the earliest descriptions of the Roman Army prior to the adoption of mail describe an Etruscan 'Hoplite' army ( the 80 centuries of the first class) armed in Greek fashion, it is highly likely that the 'rawhide/leather' loricae in question were of the typical 'Tube-and-Yoke' form.
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Dan Howard - 10-03-2010
The earliest examples of mail are from central Europe. Horny Jatov and Cuimesti date to the third century. The earliest Gallic examples Vielle-Tursan in Aubagnan and Tiefenau, Switzerland, and these both date to the 2nd century. The Romans might have adopted mail from the Gauls but the evidence currently suggests that it might have a Slavic origin.
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Paullus Scipio - 10-03-2010
Ah ! the usual confusion over just "Who were the Celts/Gauls?" I should add that when I say "Gallic" or "Celtic" I mean La Tene culture peoples, commonly referred to as 'Gauls' or 'Celts'. I do not mean people from 'Gaul/France'. The present evidence suggests that mail did indeed originate in central Europe, and was invented by La Tene culture people, around 400-350 or maybe as late as 300 BC.
Mail cannot have a 'slavic' origin, since by most reckonings, the 'Slavic' people did not exist before around 600 AD, and 'proto-Slavic' language/culture does not seem to have existed before the 1-2 C AD - though like 'celtic' anything to do with 'slavic' is controversial.
Mail origins were discussed in this thread:-
Celtic mail armour. When? <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=26153">viewtopic.php?f=25&t=26153<!-- l
Re: Varro - leather armour? - D B Campbell - 10-03-2010
Quote:De Lingua Latina V, 116: Lorica, quod e loris de corio crudo pectoralia faciebant; postea subcidit gallica e ferro sub id vocabulum, ex anulis ferrea tunica.Just to put this in context: as you probably know, Varro gives definitions for a long list of words.
In this passage, he explains why armour is called "lorica, because they used to make chest-protectors from straps (lori) of untanned leather; but afterwards, the iron Gallica, an iron tunic made of rings, was included in the same word". In this sentence, Gallica is a substantive, showing that the Romans referred to the garment itself as "a Gallic" (hence, the argument that they believed it to have been invented by the Gauls -- why else call it "a Gallic"?)
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Sean Manning - 10-03-2010
Good point Dan. I agreed that Varro does not say here that mail is Gallic until I read Duncan's post.
Quote:I think you're right. It can't be "ex Gallica ferro", because Gallica is feminine. Its odd how many words for arms in Latin are fem., but then so is mentula!Dan Howard:mvm7z5ll Wrote:De Lingua Latina V, 116: Lorica, quod e loris de corio crudo pectoralia faciebant; postea subcidit gallica e ferro sub id vocabulum, ex anulis ferrea tunica.Just to put this in context: as you probably know, Varro gives definitions for a long list of words.
In this passage, he explains why armour is called "lorica, because they used to make chest-protectors from straps (lori) of untanned leather; but afterwards, the iron Gallica, an iron tunic made of rings, was included in the same word". In this sentence, Gallica is a substantive, showing that the Romans referred to the garment itself as "a Gallic" (hence, the argument that they believed it to have been invented by the Gauls -- why else call it "a Gallic"?)
And you could be right that the lori and not just the pectoralia are of raw hide ... the grammar in this whole passage seems a bit odd.
If I just had the Latin I would guess this referred to lamellar, but most kinds of armour include lora (thongs/straps) and the tube-and-yoke design is supported by more art.
Re: Varro - leather armour? - D B Campbell - 10-03-2010
Quote: ... the grammar in this whole passage seems a bit odd.It's only odd if you're expecting historical prose. Once you realise that Varro is writing a lexicon (as I explained above), it becomes intelligible.
Quote:And you could be right that the lori and not just the pectoralia are of raw hide.Varro is quite clear about that. (I think he may mean the lori that hold the pectoral in place, rather than the pectoral being made of lori.)
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Caballo - 10-03-2010
Heres the context of the sentence from http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/varro.ll5.html .
Quote:XXIV.
Arma ab arcendo, quod his arcemus hostem. Parma, quod e medio in omnis partis par. Conum, quod cogitur in cacumen versus. Hasta, quod astans solet ferri. Iaculum, quod ut iaciatur fit. Tragula a traiciendo. Scutum a sectura ut secutum, quod a minute consectis fit tabellis. Umbones a Graeco, quod ambones.
Gladium C in G commutato a clade, quod fit ad hostium cladem gladium; similiter ab omine pilum, qui hostis periret, ut perilum. Lorica, quod e loris de corio crudo pectoralia faciebant; postea subcidit gallica e ferro sub id vocabulum, ex anulis ferrea tunica. Balteum, quod cingulum e corio habebant bullatum, balteum dictum. Ocrea, quod opponebatur ob crus. Galea ab galero, quod multi usi antiqui.
Tubae ab tubis, quos etiam nunc ita appellant tubicines sacrorum. Cornua, quod ea quae nunc sunt ex aere, tunc fiebant bubulo e cornu. Vallum vel quod ea varicare nemo posset vel quod singula ibi extrema bacilla furcillata habent figuram litterae V. Cervi ab similitudine cornuum cervi; item reliqua fere ab similitudine ut vineae, testudo, aries.
As DB said , its a lexicon- and he is looking for the origin of the various words- so lorica from the word loris (After all, the book is called "De Lingua Latina"- "About the Latin Language").
I think its a big jump to use this to prove rawhide loricae in use?
Re: Varro - leather armour? - ScipioAsina - 10-03-2010
I'll take a shot. This isn't much different from Mr. Campbell's translation.
Quote:Lorica, quod e loris de corio crudo pectoralia faciebant; postea subcidit gallica e ferro sub id vocabulum, ex anulis ferrea tunica
"Armor, which was made for the chest from straps of rawhide; thereafter, the iron gallica, a tunic of iron rings, was known by the same name."
Re: Varro - leather armour? - Paullus Scipio - 10-03-2010
Duncan wrote:
Quote:..hence, the argument that they believed it to have been invented by the Gauls -- why else call it "a Gallic"?...
I think his is an important point, and one should not lose sight of Dan's point, that the Romans might well have believed mail to be of 'Gallic' origin because they first encountered it fighting the 'Gauls/Celts' of northern Italy, so Varro's statement cannot be taken as proof/evidence that it was invented by them; but archaeology in this instance supports Varro's view - mail does indeed seem to have been invented in central Europe by people of a Celtic "La Tene" culture.
Re: Varro - leather armour? - D B Campbell - 10-03-2010
Quote:... the iron gallica, a tunic of iron rings, was known by the same name.Varro says that it's a tunica ferrea made of rings, not the tunica ex annulis ferreis that you have translated. A minor point, but we may as well get it right. :wink:
Re: Varro - leather armour? - ScipioAsina - 10-03-2010
Quote:ScipioAsina:2wa8v6ai Wrote:... the iron gallica, a tunic of iron rings, was known by the same name.Varro says that it's a tunica ferrea made of rings, not the tunica ex annulis ferreis that you have translated. A minor point, but we may as well get it right. :wink:
Why, I believe you're right. Though I don't think it changes the meaning one way or another. Thanks anyway.
