The light armed cohorts discussion and evidence

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

But then I haven't seen any iconographic representations that could be interpreted as a brillo pad, either.....but now that I think of it,
We discredit the ancient artists far too much I think, just because we can't prove they had something they recreated,
yet there seems to be much found that proves there is more to the artwork, yet we only accept, 'this little bit of a sculpture is correct, but because we don't have a find of 'this other bit' it can't be possible......

Lead is the most likely option, as bronze would be too wasteful, lead, easy to do in the field as well as in the fabrica.
Why wouldn't you want to be able to totaly stop an enemy charge?

[Crispvs]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I am sure the sculptures ARE accurate. What I am questioning is how those sculptures, now devoid of the paint which would have told us so much, are interpreted by our modern eyes.

Regarding stopping an enemy, I am at a loss to know why you think a 'normal' pilum was not capable of this. :roll:

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I guess it is the mass on impact equation. The weighted one would be totally devastating to the front ranks, as in, say the difference between a .38 special, and a .357 magnum, I wouldn't want to be shot by the first one, but the second one would totally ruin your day.
Imagine the psychological impact the weighted ones would have, ontop of the unweighted ones.

[Crispvs]

To be honest I think that the effect of seeing thousands of pila flying towards you at the same time through the air and then going straight through your shields, causing numerous casualties and causing many to have to throw away their shields immediately prior to hand to hand engagement, would have a pretty severe affect on morale at a crucial moment in an engagement.

Crispvs

[andersao]

I'm writing my PhD on skirmishing and low-intensity warfare in the Roman army, and it includes a full list and examination of Roman light infantry. The list includes every word, in both Latin and Greek used to describe light infantry, as well as an etymological analysis of each word, and a discussion regarding the organization and equipment (or lack thereof) of each group. So, jkaler48, I'm going to be positive and say when it gets published, hopefully it will provide some the answers you're looking for. :wink:

[jkaler48]

I'm writing my PhD on skirmishing and low-intensity warfare in the Roman army, and it includes a full list and examination of Roman light infantry. The list includes every word, in both Latin and Greek used to describe light infantry, as well as an etymological analysis of each word, and a discussion regarding the organization and equipment (or lack thereof) of each group. So, jkaler48, I'm going to be positive and say when it gets published, hopefully it will provide some the answers you're looking for. :wink:

That will be great! I eagerly await your thesis publication! I hope the availability of additional information will be sufficient enough to provide inspiration for reenactors to portray light Infantry. Will your thesis possibly include some reconstruction illustrations?

[andersao]

I hope the availability of additional information will be sufficient enough to provide inspiration for reenactors to portray light Infantry.

Unfortunately our sources are hardly specific about light infantry; there probably only a few groups of them that could be portrayed accurately based on the evidence that we have. wink:

Will your thesis possibly include some reconstruction illustrations?

At the moment, I don't have plans to include any reconstruction illustrations, but perhaps I'll have to consider it in the future.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

To be honest I think that the effect of seeing thousands of pila flying towards you at the same time through the air and then going straight through your shields, causing numerous casualties and causing many to have to throw away their shields immediately prior to hand to hand engagement, would have a pretty severe affect on morale at a crucial moment in an engagement.

Crispvs

That is well recorded, I believe.

[Magnus]

I don't think Byron was debating that point Crispvs, just the fact that a weighted pilum is going to have more kinetic energy, and a better % chance of piercing a shield and going through deeper than an un-weighted one. I'd hate to have a regular javelin sticking out of my shield; I'd like less one sticking through my shield and into my guts.

We don't have enough evidence to say why a weighted pilum was used, or why oval vs rectangular scuta were used...it's a mout debate.

[Crispvs]

Oh, I have no doubt that a weighted pilum would penetrate more easily. The point I have been trying to make however, is that aside from sculptural depictions which may in any case be of something other than lead (there is no colour to tell us) there is absolutely zero evidence for the existence of lead weighted pila. Therefore talk of the relative penetrative merits of weighted pila are securely in the 'they would have used them if they had them' category until some actual evidence turns up.

Incidently, Connolley's experiments have shown that the shape of the pilum gives it plenty of penetrative ability without the need for an extra weight.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Oh, I have no doubt that a weighted pilum would penetrate more easily. The point I have been trying to make however, is that aside from sculptural depictions which may in any case be of something other than lead (there is no colour to tell us) there is absolutely zero evidence for the existence of lead weighted pila. Therefore talk of the relative penetrative merits of weighted pila are securely in the 'they would have used them if they had them' category until some actual evidence turns up.

Incidently, Connolley's experiments have shown that the shape of the pilum gives it plenty of penetrative ability without the need for an extra weight.

Crispvs

As I said, these have been a subject based on sculptural depictions for many years.
Lead is the most logical material to use. Why use some thing as hard as bronze or brass, when lead is far easier to mold
around block. Ceramic, well, it would break too easily. And also, why go to the trouble of turning the shape in wood, when the working solution has been a squared wooden block. Until there is evidene of what these are really made of,
the best and most logical solution and practical, is lead.

[Crispvs]

Byron,

You are forgetting that the shaft of the pilum would have to have been turned in any case to bring it to a diameter of less than that of the pyramidal expansion, as seen on the Oberaden pila, as they were made in one piece, unlike many modern reproductions. Thus it would be little trouble to turn a round shape onto the pilum shaft as long as the original wood was thick enough at that point. In such circumstances the pyramidal part might have been carved for reasons of tradition rather than necessity, something which would be perfectly consistent with such things as (amongst many other things) the existence of unused lower suspension rings on dagger sheaths simply because their Spanish antecedents had had them. I still see absolutely no reason to see the spherical expansions seen on the pila on the Cancelleria 'A' relief as anything other than wood.

"Until there is evidene of what these are really made of, the best and most logical solution and practical, is..." - WOOD!

Peter Connolley's experiments with reconstructed pila have demonstrated that the thin iron shank of the pilum will allow it to pass through a shield and carry on for eight to twelve inches with no need for anything more than its own weight behind it. A penetration of that degree would be deadly in many cases and would result in the enforced discarding of shields, as described by Caesar, in many others. Why invent a sledgehammer to hammer in a nail when a normal hammer will do the job just as well?

The lead weighted pilum is a factoid - nothing more. Even you would not be insisting on its existence if you had not learned it from somewhere else first. I too, first heard about lead weighted pila twenty years ago or so, but then went looking for the EVIDENCE and found that it vanished like mist on a spring morning. Many pila have been found and not a single one shows any evidence of ever having been fitted with any sort of extra weight. Whatever the kinetic improvement the theoretical lead weight might give, it was clearly felt unnecessary in all found examples. Thus the theoretical lead weight goes into the bin with the bendy pilum, the baked wooden dowel and the leather segmentata.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmm, just like seg tha twere not in existence before 50ad, ok.

[jkaler48]

Couldn't the Pila be "Pila Muralis" Extra heavy Pila for Camp or Fort defense that would be difficult or impossible to throw back up at the defenders?

[Crispvs]

Considering that we are told that soldiers carried two pila murali in addition to their other weapons and equipment, I would say (again following Connolly here) that pila murali would be smaller, handier javelins which could easily be handled on a crowded rampart and thrown quickly and easily. In his paper in JRMES 12/13 he identifies a number of short spike tanged heads pila murali and although the relevant illustrations did not appear in the JRMES article, in his slightly expanded version of the same article which appeared in 'Exercitus' (Spring 2005) the relevant illustrations can be seen as Figure 4/1,2 and 3.

Crispvs