Amazing pugio blade

[Magnus]

Not sure if Matt does blades yet....if not, try Mark Morrow, or Joe Piela at lonely mountain forge.

[stevesarak]

Not sure if Matt does blades yet....if not, try Mark Morrow, or Joe Piela at lonely mountain forge.

Thanks

[markusaurelius]

Very interesting blade. Wonder if it is a style of welding similar to pattern welding, but resulting in a lines pattern instead.

by the way Matt L is busy cause he's working on finishing up my amazing looking Newstead Seg. :wink:

[Peroni]

Pattern-welded no, but forge welded yes.

It looks like Strips of slightly differing metals forge-welded into one blade to me. A lot of swords were edged in a similar way, with a harder metal used as the edge.

Very pretty, and I have never seen anything like it on such an early blade.

Might I ask its provenance?

[Crispvs]

I echo what Peronis has said and would also ask for the measurments of the blade. The overall shape appears to be mid first century, but the welded construction suggests a later date. If it is later in date, you should think about fairly plain grip plates with a crescentic pommel expansion, rather than the more triangular first century version. The provenance and measurements should give us a better idea of how it might have looked originally.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Actually, Mark Morrow does a Pugio blade that is similar to that one!

[stevesarak]

I echo what Peronis has said and would also ask for the measurments of the blade. The overall shape appears to be mid first century, but the welded construction suggests a later date. If it is later in date, you should think about fairly plain grip plates with a crescentic pommel expansion, rather than the more triangular first century version. The provenance and measurements should give us a better idea of how it might have looked originally.

Crispvs

The blade is suppose to by first century with measurements of 9 ¾ x 2 ½.

How did the blades of the first century differ form later centuries?

In the first century, was the field gear always supplied to the soldiers or could they bring their own, having bought it in town or having it personally made? Did generals have their own made? And if they could bring their own, did they sometimes add a new feature, such as the welded construction to an older design, or would that have really been unlikely as the newer design had its reason (I’m assuming it did, and it wasn’t like car manufactures that have to come up with a new design just have something new).

In coming up with the grip and scabbard design, I think there are two things to consider, what was the grip and scabbard design type in the first century, and second, considering that other museum blades don’t show this pattern, then someone went the extra distance in the construction of this ones. I’d think they’d also have gone the extra distance with the grip and scabbard. The basic design is probably the same for the period, but probably more ornate, of course coming up with it is anyone’s idea, but has anyone seen other blades, Gladius, Spatha, or pugio with the same metal work, and if so, how was the grip design on those? Maybe this blade wasn’t that rare back then, maybe we just haven’t seen many survive up till now. It’s possible that back then there was a typical thyme of striped blades to grips, so any other blades with any surviving grips or scabbards might shed a little light on it.

You said that the first century had a basic triangular shape to the pommel, thanks, that helps, as I’m not really sure which century produced which. Do you, or any others reading this have any links to pictures or drawings of ornate triangular pommel and grips. I don’t want to make a reproduction unless I can base its design on some facts, regardless how small.

Also, I’m still not sure on what the blade could have looked like in its day, silver strip on a silver blade, can’t really see that, its possible though. So with the conversations so far, I’ve come up with two possible explanations:
1) The blade could have been etched with fruit acid to bring out the two colors, and if that were the case, what would some of the metal have faded to, a dull or dark grey?
2) That the blade could have been one color in its day and with time, the patina took on one metal over the other.

Again, let me say thanks for the discussion so far, I live in the U.S. and our museums don’t really have much about Rome or Greece so I can’t really go down to the museum and pick their brains. Without a site like this, it could take me years doing my own research to come up with conclusions, while here, it just a matter of pulling everyone’s thoughts together.

If I could give the RAT site itself a laudes, I would.

[stevesarak]

Actually, Mark Morrow does a Pugio blade that is similar to that one!

I checked his website but couldn't find it. Do you have a link.

When I'm ready to have the copy made, I'll contanct him.

Thanks

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

http://www.swordsmith.net/

Actually, it is the 9.5 inch fullered blade, which I mistook for a welded blade, but still, I doubt it would be beyond him.

Check it out, some really nice work! Almost wish I was home, as prices for shipping some things over here make it a bit steep. Mind you another gladius might be nice, or a pugio..... :roll:

Enjoy!

[Marcus Mummius]

http://www.swordsmith.net/

Actually, it is the 9.5 inch fullered blade, which I mistook for a welded blade, but still, I doubt it would be beyond him.

Check it out, some really nice work! Almost wish I was home, as prices for shipping some things over here make it a bit steep. Mind you another gladius might be nice, or a pugio..... :roll:

Enjoy!

We've bought from him several times and shipment prices to Europe are okay. Cheaper than having something send from Spain for example...

He will most certainly be able to make a composite pugio like being discussed. I once contacted him about damast gladius and spatha blades and the prices were very reasonable compared to what they ask here in Europe...

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

The blade is suppose to by first century with measurements of 9 ¾ x 2 ½.

Steve
what is the thickness of the blade?
do you have a full length picture of the blade?
Thanks

Luc

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Possibly Jef, as I was enquiring abot a weighted pilum at the time.... :lol:

[stevesarak]

The blade is suppose to by first century with measurements of 9 ¾ x 2 ½.

Steve
what is the thickness of the blade?
do you have a full length picture of the blade?
Thanks

Luc

I haven't measured the thickness yet.

I contacted Swordsmith and this is what they said about the blade:

"OK , I see the detail but I would have to agree it is a composite blade , the edge is most likly steel and the brighter metal is a material contaning either lead or nickle , tin would have been added in a grove efect like a fullered blade but it would have been pushed out from the rust expansion , so that is rulled out.

They do know the the far eat was useing lead to to add to the steel and iron to slow the rust but if it had reached the west of this time period who knows the other posiblity is metor iron contaning nickle , but I would have to say they used lead , tine will evapoate when it reaches the welding temp of iron or steel."

They seem to know their metals. I’m going to rule out lead as, as he says above, was from the Far East and, holding the blade in my hand, the lighter metal is lighter in color then lead. I have heard about the metal from meteors being used before, so maybe that’s what the lighter strips are. Nickel from off planet.

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

Thanks, for the picture,
when you measure the thickness, could you also measure the dept of the fullers???
you never have enough info :wink:

cheers

Luc

[stevesarak]

Thanks, for the picture,
when you measure the thickness, could you also measure the dept of the fullers???
you never have enough info :wink:

cheers

Luc

Hi,

When you say fuller, if you mean grooves or ridges, the blade is made of strips of two different kinds of metal. Looking at the view from the back, or down between the slight gaps separating the strips, you can see that the lighter color metal runs down all the way through to the other side. The lighter and darker color metals are level on the surface.

As far as the measurements of the thickness of the blade, I received some flak from other collectors, friends of mine, that say that since this is such a rare blade, that I shouldn’t even post full pictures straight on; otherwise people could start making copies.

I’m still up in the air about that, but I see their point, so at this time I think I’m going to have to refrain from giving out any other measurements.

I’m sure you understand.