The new Manning scale helmet

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Unfortunately I don't have a photo in the computer,but for those of you that have "The Greek Hoplite" osprey book,go to page 30.Similar depictions in page 55 where we see even other styles of painting on helmets(the first two from the left) and page 61 showing the vase with Achilles and the wounded Patroclos.Scaled helmets are frequent in art and yet not one helmet has been found indicating it was plated or something.So,I'm also for painted scales.I didn't much like that manning helmet but I'm still impressed.I didn't believe the crown of the helmet could have been made by scales and this one proves the opposite.With some corrections and developments it could have been a very convincing helmet,dodn't you think?
Another "mistake" is that they made the scales go downwards when in most(not all) paintings they look upwards...oh well!
Khairete
Giannis

[Zenodoros]

Today I was looking at a few different composite helmet depictions and wondering why I never see any reenactors wearing them, I always thought they looked great, though I had no idea how they were made, or whether they were actually scaled or not... seems that the judgment is still up in the air.

The Manning helmet is actually a real letdown. Although it does have similarities with later helmets, I think the direct inspiration comes from this painting of Ajax.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Right,this is the painting I mentioned in the Osprey book.Ajax carrying Achilles' body.

[Tarbicus]

Why would the scales on the depiction of Ajax have those small dots in the middle if they were painted on? Not saying they're physical scales, but it is a bit odd, and opens up the possibility of rivets perhaps?

Shame the scales are upside down.

[Arthes]

This is Elaine's painted Chalcidic, I can't find a better picture at the moment...

[MeinPanzer]

The main difference between scale and lamellar is the backing. The type of lacing is irrelevant. The layout of the plates is irrelevant. If the backing is needed for structural integrity then it is scale. If not then it is lamellar. There is "locking scale" which could fit in either category.

I've never heard this definition before, and I don't agree. The backing isn't what makes something scale or lamellar, it's the shape and attachment method of the pieces themselves. "Scale" is applied uniformly at one side or another (facing upwards or downwards), so that if it is bent with the grain, the scales will stick up, thus allowing flexibility. If it is attached at both ends, so that nothing sticks up when it is flexed, it is lamellar. "Locked scale" would be actual scale-shaped pieces, but they would be lamellar. Scale needs a backing and lamellar doesn't, but it can and often did have a backing as well.

[Craig Gascoigne]

Having spoken to Craig from Manning over the Easter weekend they knew this would be a controversial interpretation.

The helmet up close looks much more Chalcidian than anything else in Greek helmets i seen and the owner also working on wearing the helmet flaps up.

Speaking Manning it was interesting on what they had to say about helmet selection from customers. Nearly everyone wants a Corinthian of some type or another. Chalcidian & Pilos and others only get some interest but by far Corinthians are the most favoured by those wishing to purchase a Greek Helmet. I thought this was very interesting point. They were saying people often ask about the others but fall back to the Cornithian on most occasions.

[T. Finkas]

...I've never seen Greek helmet modified with scales or a "helmet bowl" made of scales, unless you mean a cap with scales attached. As I said, the only scale "helmets" that I know of were pretty much caps with scales sewn on. Do you have some actual examples of Greek-style helmets modified with scales by the Scythians?

Osprey's The Scythians shows a few examples of what I am referring to. I'll try to make some scans for you.

Tim

[MeinPanzer]

...I've never seen Greek helmet modified with scales or a "helmet bowl" made of scales, unless you mean a cap with scales attached. As I said, the only scale "helmets" that I know of were pretty much caps with scales sewn on. Do you have some actual examples of Greek-style helmets modified with scales by the Scythians?

Osprey's The Scythians shows a few examples of what I am referring to. I'll try to make some scans for you.

Tim

I just had a look through my copy and I found no examples of any "formed" scale helmets. Plate E2 has been reconstructed with a scale aventail, but that's not really a substantial part of the helmet like the example in the OP is. Is that what you are referring to? On page 3 there is an image of the archaeological remains of a cap-style scale helmet and then plate D2 shows this scale "helmet" reconstructed. Neither looks Greek at all, or has any solid Greek helmet components to it.

[T. Finkas]

The Scythians from Osprey:

Page 10: Drawings (caption)
"Greek...helmets...some apparently modified by local smiths..."

Page 12: Photo (caption)
"...helmet from...Solokha...Greek manufacture...modifications by Scythian armourers. Extra neck and cheek defenses were sometimes added."

The book also mentions Scythian helmets completely covered in scale that seem to be a deveopment of the leather Scythian hat/hood/leather helmet. Plate D2 illustrates this construction format.

There are at least several grave finds (not necessarily covered in the Osprey book) where the top of the helmet was covered completely in(or perhaps "principally composed of") scales---as were attendant cheek and neck defenses. I do not remember if the texts mention what formed the backing of these artifact finds.

Here's a lifesize museum reconstruction (see below). Although it might be difficult to tell from this photo, the top of the helmet and the sides are all composed of scales.



So what I am suggesting is that the theory a locally (i.e. Scythian) smith might make a scale helmet top with Greek side panels and brow is somewhat akin to the known method of a Scythian smith using a Greek helmet top and cutting the side panels off to replace them with scaled defenses. A helmet that is a composite of Scythian scaled construction with Greek raised sheet metal construction.

What I am not so enamoured of with the Manning helmet it that is uses linen as a base whereas hardened leather might be more suitable. I'd want rigidity there, myself! LOL . And according Herodotus, hardened leather falls within the armouring technology of the Scythians.

Cheers,
Tim

[MeinPanzer]

The Scythians from Osprey:

Page 10: Drawings (caption)
"Greek...helmets...some apparently modified by local smiths..."

Page 12: Photo (caption)
"...helmet from...Solokha...Greek manufacture...modifications by Scythian armourers. Extra neck and cheek defenses were sometimes added."

Of course I'm quite aware of Greek helmets being modified by Scythians, but there are no examples of Greek helmets being modified with scales in any major way, which is all that is relevant to this discussion.

The book also mentions Scythian helmets completely covered in scale that seem to be a deveopment of the leather Scythian hat/hood/leather helmet. Plate D2 illustrates this construction format.

There are at least several grave finds (not necessarily covered in the Osprey book) where the top of the helmet was covered completely in(or perhaps "principally composed of") scales---as were attendant cheek and neck defenses. I do not remember if the texts mention what formed the backing of these artifact finds.

Here's a lifesize museum reconstruction (see below). Although it might be difficult to tell from this photo, the top of the helmet and the sides are all composed of scales.

I think we are having a bit of a communication mixup- I totally agree that they had scale-covered "helmets" in the sense that they were leather lined caps with scales or lamellar covering them, as we've seen here. But these have no substantial components that Greek helmets have- you never see "helmets" like this with visors, nasals, frills, neckguards, or separate solid cheek pieces. This is why I don't think the image in the OP shows a Scythian-style helmet- because the Scythians showed no signs of modifying solid metal helms to add scales to them or adding substantial solid-metal pieces to scale "helmets."

So what I am suggesting is that the theory a locally (i.e. Scythian) smith might make a scale helmet top with Greek side panels and brow is somewhat akin to the known method of a Scythian smith using a Greek helmet top and cutting the side panels off to replace them with scaled defenses. A helmet that is a composite of Scythian scaled construction with Greek raised sheet metal construction.

Only, as I've said, solid metal Greek helmets like this were not modified substantially with scale by the Scythians. They modified Greek helmets by cutting off cheek pieces and nasals, trimming them down, even adding scale aventails, but they never for instance added a nasal, neckguard, and cheekpieces from a solid helmet to a scale skullcap, which is what the OP would have to be if we followed your hypothesis.

[Anonymous]

The 'scales' seen in the artwork are more likely to be a painted design,

Careful, Cristi, you're asserting as fact something which is still under discussion amongst historians and archaeologists, I believe. Why are they "more likely" to be painted? Who says so? Based on what evidence?
I would agree that it seems silly to use scale on any rigid structure, but here we have a shield, a thorax and a helmet, depicted together, and all with scale represented on them. Such evidence suggests (I would put it no higher) that the scales are supposed to be real. The helmet may have a leather dome, re-inforced with scale (again, it seems like a silly idea to me, since anyone who can afford such a complex construction for the helmet and the shield, ought to be able to afford a one-piece helm). This is not, by any means, the sole representation of a scaled helmet on pottery, the example in Sekunda, "Warriors of Ancient Greece" immediately springs to mind.

I wouldn't argue that we should not represent this type of helmet as painted; I think the HA example was made because of evidence from statuary of helmets painted in this manner, but I wouldn't argue, either, that such statuary evidence precludes the possibility that some helmets had actual scales.

[Anonymous]

This is Elaine's painted Chalcidic, I can't find a better picture at the moment...

The interesting thing about this example, is that its appearance is unlike those "scaled" helmets represented on vases, where the edges of the scales are clearly shown, as well as the dots which Tarby suggested might be rivets. This looks like a purely geometric pattern. I think it fits well the statuary evidence on which it is based, but that doesn't appear to me to depict the same thing as the pottery evidence.

[Marcus F.]

Elaine's helmet reminds me to one of these constructions from the exhibition "Bunte Götter":

[egfroth]

It's a pity that Australia is at the antipodes... I wish it would have been near.

Whate are you talking about? Australia is the centre of the world!

I'm sure Dan Howard and Peter Raftos and Craig Gascoigne would agree. . . .