The new Manning scale helmet

[Hoplitesmores]

Did you guys see this yet
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_id=493
Looks great , the inspiration but have been something like this.Still could such shields and helmets be widespread or merely and certainly the arms of particularly wealthy individuals.I have only seen such arms in this vase but there could be more.The shield i find more interesting then even the helm itself.

[Arthes]

Oooooh....that is rather nice...but looks rather more inspired by a Roman helmet to me :?

[Tarbicus]

Manning are up to their eyeballs in work at the mo. I was told the other day by them that there's a 22 month delivery period right now. :?

[Hoplitesmores]

Yeah what is it supposed to be ? In the vase the scales are on a corinthian though the moving cheek-parts existed in Greek helms as well.The front part with the fored head and nose guard kind of confuses me as it is a separate part from the helm.

[Hoplitesmores]

22 months?! Wow is the next world war going to fought with battle axes & spears! :? They got their hands full thats for sure!All the better they can increase their repertoire.

[Arthes]

I've been told that this is an interpretation of a late Chalcidic kranos, however, there does not seem to be any evidence for scales used on this style of helm.
The 'scales' seen in the artwork are more likely to be a painted design, as can be seen on a kranos used by a member of the HA.
Although there is evidence that the Scythians used scales the helm was a different shape and would be classified as Scythian, not Greek.

[FAVENTIANVS]

It's a pity that Australia is at the antipodes... I wish it would have been near.

[Dan Diffendale]

In the vase the scales are on a corinthian

It looks to me like the cheek-pieces are hinged in the vase-painting, a type certainly known; compare the helmet from Gubbio in the Villla Giulia Museum.

The Manning Imperial is nice work, but it doesn't look too much like anything ancient I've seen. The cheek-pieces seem Renaissancey-Roman, the ridged nasal Late Antique, though the overall shape looks like a Chalcidian-type.

[T. Finkas]

I'd say this falls well within the scope of altered or customized greek helmets that wound up in Scythian graves. I'm not saying I've seen this exact one, but it sure follows the "feel" of some extant examples.

Shields faced in scale is another Scythian tradition. I wouldn't be suprised to hear that the Scythians covered coffee cups and toilet paper in scales..okay, maybe I would.

Cheers,
Tim

[Idomeneas]

nice try but they missed it. If they had the eyebrow they might have save it but now its like a viking helmet wityh greek neckguard

[MeinPanzer]

I'd say this falls well within the scope of altered or customized greek helmets that wound up in Scythian graves. I'm not saying I've seen this exact one, but it sure follows the "feel" of some extant examples.

Shields faced in scale is another Scythian tradition. I wouldn't be suprised to hear that the Scythians covered coffee cups and toilet paper in scales..okay, maybe I would.

Cheers,
Tim

The thing is, this really doesn't follow the "feel" of Scythian armour at all. Scythian scale "helmets" were really nothing more than caps with scales sewn on them. I've certainly never seen one or the remnants of one with a solid neck guard, cheek pieces, or a nasal. I've seen Scythian lamellar shields, but not scale shields.

Do you have a link or a source for a scale shield?

IMO, both the helmet and the shield look far too "formed" to be actual scale pieces of armour. My vote goes for the effect being painted on.

[T. Finkas]

By "feel" I meant the fashion of using Greek helmet pieces mixed with scaled sections. Since Scythians made scaled helmet bowls---and--- they made helmets made from mixed scale and pieces of Greek helmets, I do not find this helmet beyond the scope of their fashion, though I have not run across any example exactly like this. I guess I am saying that after viewing many various eaxamples of Scythian modified greek helmets, I personally do not find this to be a great stretch. Maybe that's just me?

As for the shields, the well-known Solokha Combdepicts examples of Scythian shields, one faced in scales and one in strips. These images are backed up by grave finds.

When I use the term scale, I mean a small metal sheet perforated and attached to a backing. As far as I can tell the term lamellar usually is applied to a structure of scales laced to each other without a supportive backing. As such, I have never read that the Scythian shields are a self-supporting matrix of scales. Is this what you are saying? Or maybe I am using different definitions for scale and lamellar that you might be?

Cheers,
Tim

[MeinPanzer]

By "feel" I meant the fashion of using Greek helmet pieces mixed with scaled sections. Since Scythians made scaled helmet bowls---and--- they made helmets made from mixed scale and pieces of Greek helmets, I do not find this helmet beyond the scope of their fashion, though I have not run across any example exactly like this. I guess I am saying that after viewing many various eaxamples of Scythian modified greek helmets, I personally do not find this to be a great stretch. Maybe that's just me?

I've never seen Greek helmet modified with scales or a "helmet bowl" made of scales, unless you mean a cap with scales attached. As I said, the only scale "helmets" that I know of were pretty much caps with scales sewn on. Do you have some actual examples of Greek-style helmets modified with scales by the Scythians?

As for the shields, the well-known Solokha Combdepicts examples of Scythian shields, one faced in scales and one in strips. These images are backed up by grave finds.

Right, I forgot that the rider's "shoulder" shield was scale. I can't think of any actual examples of scale shields found though- only lamellar shields. Do you know of any actual examples?

When I use the term scale, I mean a small metal sheet perforated and attached to a backing. As far as I can tell the term lamellar usually is applied to a structure of scales laced to each other without a supportive backing. As such, I have never read that the Scythian shields are a self-supporting matrix of scales. Is this what you are saying? Or maybe I am using different definitions for scale and lamellar that you might be?

My definition of scales would be a piece of metal attached at one end to a backing, whereas lamellar is made up of pieces of metal- usually differently shaped from scales- which are attached at both ends (or enough sides so that the metal piece could not be "plucked up"). You are definitely right that the Solokha comb features a scale shield, though.

[Dan Howard]

The main difference between scale and lamellar is the backing. The type of lacing is irrelevant. The layout of the plates is irrelevant. If the backing is needed for structural integrity then it is scale. If not then it is lamellar. There is "locking scale" which could fit in either category.

I agree that Manning missed the mark with this one. Either scales were attached to an organic foundation (in which case the bottom half of the helm would not be made of metal), or the scales were painted onto metal. The above construction is simply wrong. To be fair, I doubt that Manning had much say in it. All they do is fulfil commissions. They don't care whether it is "historical" so long as they get paid. I would like them to get rid of that caption though.

[Idomeneas]

i would also suggest that the originals if not painted maybe they were scaloped to look as if they had scales, in the same way some helmetshad ''hair''