Newstead Armour girth loop fastening methods

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

I have a what appears to be a chest plate closure buckle. It is stylistically almost identical to the Newstead lobate hinge shoulder lame, only smaller. It appears to be for the closure of the upper chest plates.There is no hinge, (except the buckle itself), as in the case of the Corbridge, but appears to be riveted directly onto a strap. This type of buckle, considering it's decorative attributes, would support Poulter's proposed method of securing the breast and backplates.

Gaius Dcius Aquilius
(Ralph izard)
no website, no photo... send you one to your e-mail if you send it by PM...

[mcbishop]

Very good comment - Perhaps Mike Bishop can have a quiet work in the conservators ears sometime and put them in the know. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sadly nobody outside the re-enactor community pays much attention to what I say ;-) There is (or was) a Corbridge type lorica seg in a Leicestershire museum that is displayed on its mannekin back to front, so pretty much anything is possible. However, I'll certainly mention it to one of the curators (and to cause you all some wry amuseument, I hadn't spotted that particular boo-boo in what is, after all, my national museum; ho hum...).

Mike Bishop

[Fabius Liberalis]

Mike

That is a complete surprise to me that you think nobody outside the re-enactor community pays much attention to what you say!!!. I had thought that with an academic background and many published works on the subject your opinion would be valued and count a great deal.

Certainly if you can use your contacts within the Royal Scottish Museum to influence a change to the display of the Newstead fragments I wish you the very best of luck.

They are most likely to be influenced by cost implications but in this case it should only require raising the former that supports the shoulder guards and moving the inner one to the outside of the collar plate. Although a re-evaluation of the positioning of the fragments of the inner shoulder guard in light of the fact that the missing spaces contained the lobate hinges I think could be beneficial.

In an ideal world of course the best solution would be a reconstructed Newstead to your pattern displayed alongside the correctly assembled fragments but that no doubt would be outwith their budget.

[ambrosius]

Hi Liberalis!

Thank you for the additional input.

No problem, buddy. Glad to help. As I say, my model
is only an 'Oldstead' :lol: with leather-ties for the girth-hoops, and no
turn-keys for the collar-plates. So I've always used split-pins to fasten
the collar-plates. And the way your girth-hoops are assembled is just
like my collar-plates. 8) So I just wondered if we could close your
girth-hoops the same way as my collar-plates - with split-pins - and
think of a way to attach all the pins to each other - and the lorica -
so as they don't come out and get lost. No claim to historical-authenticity,
of course, just thinking of a practical solution for you guys. 8)

Is this roughly the shape of fitting you are thinking about

Bingo! That's it exactly. :wink: This way, you'll have more
flexibility between your girth-hoops (hopefully) and Crispus's group
won't lose so many split-pins/'S-hooks'. And, as you say, you can take
the leather thong through the rings in all the hooks and attach it to the
collar-plates, so that everything is kept together all the time. 8)

I wouldn't worry about having the antediluvian version of the Newstead. If more complete Newsteads are ever found this current version may go the same way!!!!! Its an evolutionary process and I dont think there is ever going to be a 'definitive' version anyway!!!

You're very kind. That makes me feel a lot better. :wink:
So you're saying I could think of my 'Oldstead' as an intermediate
between the Corbridge and the Newstead. Actually, that's probably
the best way of looking at it, with designs evolving over time. Because,
come to think of it, the Corbridge B is actually intermediate between
the Corbridge A and the Newstead, isn't it, with the metal-hooks
gradually replacing the more vulnerable leather straps?
Cheers,
Ambrosius/Mike

[ambrosius]

Sadly nobody outside the re-enactor community pays much attention to what I say ;-) )

The bam-pots. It's their loss. 8)

There is (or was) a Corbridge type lorica seg in a Leicestershire museum that is displayed on its mannekin back to front, so pretty much anything is possible.

Yep, they're everywhere. There's a camera shop/photo-
developers opposite the Roman Baths in Bath, which has exactly the
same thing. Foreign tourists queue-up in the Summer to have their
photos taken with it and then hand their film in for developing. You'd
think someone in the Roman museum at the baths would have noticed,
as it acts as publicity for them, too... :?

Cheers,
Ambrosius/Mike

[Fabius Liberalis]

I have a what appears to be a chest plate closure buckle. It is stylistically almost identical to the Newstead lobate hinge shoulder lame, only smaller. It appears to be for the closure of the upper chest plates.There is no hinge, (except the buckle itself), as in the case of the Corbridge, but appears to be riveted directly onto a strap. This type of buckle, considering it's decorative attributes, would support Poulter's proposed method of securing the breast and backplates.

Gaius Dcius Aquilius
(Ralph izard)

Here are photos of the buckle described by Ralph in his previous post.

[ARudling]

Isnt that more of a Corb A style hinge ? especially at that size.

I have seen a repro seg somewhere using exactly that for the cross closure on the breastplate.

Adam

[claudia crisis]

Isnt that more of a Corb A style hinge ? especially at that size.

I have seen a repro seg somewhere using exactly that for the cross closure on the breastplate.

Adam

Interesting..
I can see where he's coming from on the style of hinge - triangular cut out being like Newstead style. The size is immaterial really. It obviously comes from a strap because of the gap between the plates, & no strap would be likely to be as wide as one of those big chunky Newstead lobate hinges.
Do you have any context to date it though?

Hilary

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

I don't have any find context on this other than "Eastern Europe". I believe it was from the Gutmann collection. I have indirect references to several similar pieces found on the upper Rhine, but no publications.

Based on its condition, gage, and stamped construction, I have no reason to believe it to be other than genuine. It is about the width of the Newstead chest plate opening that is framed by a copper alloy plate, presumably to prevent chafing, as would be if a strap was used.

It is also similar to Bishop's illustration 5.6 3a, which is missing the piece that articulates with it. (Lorica Segmentata Vol. I, 2002.)

Ralph Izard

[ambrosius]

Based on its condition, gage, and stamped construction, I have no reason to believe it to be other than genuine. It is about the width of the Newstead chest plate opening that is framed by a copper alloy plate, presumably to prevent chafing, as would be if a strap was used. It is also similar to Bishop's illustration 5.6 3a, which is missing the piece that articulates with it. (Lorica Segmentata Vol. I, 2002.)

Ralph Izard

Somehow, though, I'd always seen the Newstead as an attempt to
'do-away' with all the external leathers on a Corbridge and replace
them with metal fittings, which can't be cut (leaving only the internal
leathers for the purpose of articulation, where that's really needed).
We see that process of evolution beginning already in going from
early to later model Corbridges, don't we? :wink: And one thing that
really bugs me is that the two halves of the shoulder-girdle on a
Corbridge A will never sit horizontally (as they do on a Newstead)
without some serious (historically unevidenced, by the way) shoulder-
padding/subarmalis. It pains me to see re-enactors in Corbridge A s,
where the flexibility of the leather holding the two shoulder-pieces
together allows the halves to flex at that angle which opens two lovely
big holes, one under the throat, and another over the heart... :lol:
(Yikes, not for me, thanks very much 8) )

No doubt, of course, Romans did actually have the kind of shoulder
padding which forced the shoulder-girdle on a Corbridge A to lie
horizontally, and not to uncover those parts it was surely designed
to protect :wink: And wearing shoulder padding of the right depth to
raise the two halves to the horizontal has the added benefit of raising
the entire shoulder-girdle much higher, thus reducing the gap between
the top of the lorica and the neck-guard on the Gallic/Imperial helmet,
thus giving better protection to the neck against a sword-cut. But I'd
just rather trust to the metal hooks, turn-keys and split-pins of a
Newstead over the leathers of a Corbridge any day. :wink:

Cheers,
Ambrosius/Mike

[mcbishop]

Here are photos of the buckle described by Ralph in his previous post.

Looks like a mashup to me. Could have been done by a less-than-scrupulous dealer (mixing two genuinely original components to make a chimera), but I suspect it is more likely to be a genuine kludge in an attempt to fix a knackered fitting. Although the type A Corbridge Hoard cuirasses all had all-ferrous hingeless buckles on the inside rear of the girth hoops, copper-alloy ones are often found loose so that may be where this belonged; alternatively, it could have been a breast or back fastening. However, I see no reason why it should be a Newstead, rather than a Corbridge, fitting. True, we now know the Corbridge and Newstead types overlapped quite considerably (over 100 years, in fact), but I think it takes special pleading to insist that it belonged to a Newstead. As ever, Occam's Razor is your friend.

Mike Bishop

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Looks like a mashup to me. Could have been done by a less-than-scrupulous dealer (mixing two genuinely original components to make a chimera), but I suspect it is more likely to be a genuine kludge in an attempt to fix a knackered fitting.

Mike Bishop

From the corrosion on the buckle, where the hinge pin is, the buckle has been there a while, so I think it was the original design intent. The center of the buckle has a possibly later, but still contemporary within the original usage time frame, applied strip that centers, (more or less), the buckle tongue.

This could be a baldric strap buckle, if such existed, or have some other purpose, but it would close a chest plate, and still cover most of the exposed strap. The trend to cover these exposed pieces was pointed out in one of the above posts by Ambrosius.

Ralph Izard

[Iosephus]

Avete!

As I said before our group was constructing a newstead seg according to Bishop's blueprints.

Trararaaa (trumpet sound):
Finally it is finished!
Some pictures:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/ ... /Front.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/ ... d/Side.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/ ... d/Back.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/ ... ection.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/ ... oulder.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/ ... plates.jpg

We had to heavily modify the dimensions of the original plans, because of the size of the gentleman wearing the seg (more than 190 cm high, weights over 110 kg).
The seg was used extensively on Ludi Savariensis during the last weekend and it turned to be just as comfortable and durable as the old Robinson newsteads.

[mcbishop]

As I said before our group was constructing a newstead seg according to Bishop's blueprints.

Trararaaa (trumpet sound):
Finally it is finished!

I feel a bit like a proud grandfather (thankfully I'm a few years away from that fate... hopefully ;-), with all these Newsteads springing up all over the place.

Here's an idea: my plans were only ever hypotheticals and were never tested by me. How about you and/or legio VI in the States putting the plans you used for your cuirasses onto the web so that others may have access to them (much as Matthew Amt did for the Corbridge cuirasses)?

Mike Bishop

[Emeraldweapon7d]

I suppose patterns would come in handy. i think i'll wait until some are available before attempting anything. another thing i'm looking foward to seeing is the lorica segmentata combined volume, although i have a feeling i will be waiting a while on that.