Newstead Armour girth loop fastening methods

[Fabius Liberalis]

Hi

I wonder if anyone can tell me the current thinking in the community on the fastening of the girth loops on a Newstead Armour (M C Bishop pattern).

On my own Newstead (see avatar) I presently use a brass rod on the girth loops but am not entirely happy with that arrangement.
I was considering individual split pins perhaps tied together with leather strip to prevent loss.

Any comments will be appreciated.

[FlaviusCrispus]

Ave, Fabius!

At Legio VI VPF (CA, USA), where the Newstead is our preferred model cuirass, we use individual split pins to hold the girth hoops in place. This page gives an idea of how the cuirass is donned and secured:

http://www.legionsix.org/DonningNewstead.htm

My own split pins are of thinner metal than Arik's, and are a little easier to push into place.

A problem is that the pins can work loose and get lost. Some of us also tie the split pins to a long leather lace attached to the cuirass, but they can and do work themselves free from the lace, and the lace can get in the way when you're trying to push them through the girth loops. So most of us are just resigned to occasionally losing split pins and carry a bunch of spares to every event. Since split pins are evidently pretty common finds at Roman military sites, the Romans seem to have experienced the same problem.

A few of us have considered using a single leather lace running down through the girth loops, but the idea of a single metal rod down the front of the cuirass is a new one for me. Does it restrict the compression of the girth plates in any way, and make it tougher for you to bend over?

From your avatar image, your cuirass looks very nice! Did you make your own Newstead cuirass, or if not, who made it for you? Do you have any larger pictures? We're very proud of our Newsteads at Legio VI, and are curious about any other group that uses them.

[ambrosius]

Ave Crispus,

Ave, Fabius!

At Legio VI VPF (CA, USA), where the Newstead is our preferred model cuirass, we use individual split pins to hold the girth hoops in place. This page gives an idea of how the cuirass is donned and secured:

http://www.legionsix.org/DonningNewstead.htm

My own split pins are of thinner metal than Arik's, and are a little easier to push into place.

A problem is that the pins can work loose and get lost.

Nice website pictures. Though I noticed that the split pins being used
are really quite open, hence contributing to being lost. Lord knows, I
haven't worn my Newstead for a couple of years, but might I make
a suggestion? You could try bending the pins so that they're almost
closed before inserting them into the rings of the girth hoops, so that
the 'springiness' of the pins just allows enough slack for them to be
pushed through, snapping almost shut once fitted. I'm not sure about
whether Iron or Brass split rings are more evidenced at Roman sites,
or which might be the most suitably 'springy' for this purpose. Obviously,
we can't really be thinking about using modern 'spring-steel'. :wink:
I guess that the Brass ones your group have gone for best match
the brass fittings on the girth-hoops, and would best avoid corrosion,
especially after being handled by lots of sweaty fingers when being
put-on and taken-off. The only other suggestion I can make is to use
split pins that are asymetrical, ie with one end longer than the other.
That would help keep them 'upright' once fitted, and prevent them
'rotating' in the ring of the girth-hoop before 'tipping-out' (which I guess
is the method by which they are being lost. 8)

Stop Press: I just thought of one more: You could invent a totally
new (unevidenced?) split pin with a ring on the end not used for
passing into the girth-hoop, then tie a thong through this to all the
others. That way, it will keep them all together, prevent them falling-
out, and won't interfere with fitting the pins to the girth-hoops. :wink:

Vale,

Ambrosius/Mike

[FlaviusCrispus]

Nice website pictures. Though I noticed that the split pins being used
are really quite open, hence contributing to being lost. Lord knows, I
haven't worn my Newstead for a couple of years, but might I make
a suggestion? You could try bending the pins so that they're almost
closed before inserting them into the rings of the girth hoops, so that
the 'springiness' of the pins just allows enough slack for them to be
pushed through, snapping almost shut once fitted.

Yeah, Arik's split pins are quite open at the end, mainly because he makes them out of very thick (3/16ths, maybe?) brass rod. Mine are much thinner, and more angular, and are easier to pinch closed once they are inserted. Jared Fleury's pins, seen here, are similar to mine:

http://www.florentius.com/segmentata/im ... esmall.jpg

I believe the Roman split pins have been found are all made of copper alloy, but that doesn't mean much since iron pins would be more unlikely to survive. So there may have been iron ones as well.

Attaching the pins to a ring, and running a leather lace through that to keep them together, might work. We'll have to give it a try.

[Fabius Liberalis]

Ave Ambrosius et Flavius

Thank you both for the input. Its much appreciated. It gives me a good indication of current thinking from more experienced practitioners in the use of a Newstead cuirass. I will certainly try out your suggestions .

Yes Flavius the increased rigidity of the girth hoops with a rod fastener was one reason for my intention to change the fastening method. Also as you say in the archaeological evidence there seems to have been more split pins discovered than lengths of rod !!.

My cuirass was made by an armourer in Wales to my specs as I don't have full workshop facilities although I have undertaken some metalwork alterations on it myself. Extensive use was made of Arik's Newstead article on your excellent Legio VI V PF (CA USA) website and it was the inspiration for me having one commissioned. After all the original fragments which gave the name to this class of Roman armour were found here in Scotland.

The only small change I wanted was a slight reduction in the width of the shoulder plates so that they should more closely match the original find pieces together with a consequent small reduction in the lobate hinge width. But that was just my personal preference and due to the scarcity of original material available in comparison to the Corbridge cuirass finds I hope my interpretation of the Newstead cuirass can still be justified.

As requested I attach 3 views of my Newstead cuirass.

[Iosephus]

Ian,
Thanks for the images! Our group is currently making a Bishop version Newstead Lorica and I couldn't figure out from the Blueprint how the hell should we assemble the turn-pins on the breast and collar plates (eg. how to stick the "key" through the small copper alloy plate), but finally I think I get the point! :lol:

By the way:
are you THAT Ian Watson?
I mean the writer?

[Fabius Liberalis]

József

I am pleased to hear that your Legio is making a Newstead Lorica. How many are in your group and do they have a website? Does Hungary have many Roman re-enactor groups?

Yes I had to make a modification recently to the turnpins on my Lorica and here is a photo of the latest version. This is fitted through the hole in the collar plate. A washer and split pin holds it in place. Some turnpin versions do not allow movement of the whole length of the rod section through the armour but personally I found that these make the turnpin too rigid when fitting the Lorica.

By the way I am not THAT famous science fiction writer.

[Iosephus]

Ooops, that's something that I would have never thought of... hock:
I mean making the turnpin from several pieces instead of a single one as suggested on Bishop's blueprints.
Questions:
- what do you think, wouldn't the split pin irritate or even hurt you if, for example, you would get a forceful blow on your breast?
- is the soldering on the turnpin strong enough to hold out under heavy stress (working/fighting/marching)?

How big is our group? Huh, good question. About 16-17 plus the civilian (wifes, girlfriends, kids) but it's very rare when we are all together. Actually we have only Newsteads but all of them are the outdated Robinson versions, so this will be our first one made according to Bishop.

Roman re-enactment groups in Hungary:
Savaria Legio (about 30 members) portraying Legio XV Apollinaris
Legio Brigetio that's us, Legio I Adiutrix Pia Fidelis

Collegium Gladiatorium (gladiators)
Familia Gladiatoria (interesting - more gladiators)

plus there is at least one celtic group and a mixed group of celts/germans.

[Iosephus]

"By the way I am not THAT famous science fiction writer."

Never mind, I googled Ian Watson and got thousands of results. So you are really a lot...

[Fabius Liberalis]

Ave Iosephus

This is a recent modification to my turnpin so as yet I have no idea how it will stand up to heavy use long term. The previous turnpin was made in one piece out of 3 mm brass plate and I used the same diameter for the shank. This was a mistake as it turned out to be too weak and it eventually broke. Rather than make completely new turnpins and to save time I cut off the broken shank and soldered on a 4 mm brass rod with a dovetail joint for some more strength.

Yes you are right if you are going to use the lorica in heavy fighting scenarios then its probably best to increase the diameter of the shank for a short section before reducing it to the smaller diameter of the collar plate hole so that the rest of the shank does not totally pass through and cut into the chest.

If you haven't yet made your turnpins then making them in one piece is still probably stronger although it might be best to use thicker plate.You could always then file down the key section if you think its too thick. If my recently modified turnpins break again this is what I will do.

Question:
If you are currently using the Robinson version of the Newstead why not use the turnpins on them or make new ones to the same pattern and dimensions if they have given you good service ???

By the way here is a photo I took of the original Newstead fragments in the Edinburgh museum near where I live just north of the Antonine Wall. Look how they have re-assembled it with the shoulder plates underneath the collar plate !!!!!!!!

[claudia crisis]

Looks painful - you could lose a couple of small bits of yourself on a cold day from the sharp ends of those shoulder guards!

Hilary

[ambrosius]

Ave Liberalis,

By the way here is a photo I took of the original Newstead fragments in the Edinburgh museum near where I live just north of the Antonine Wall. Look how they have re-assembled it with the shoulder plates underneath the collar plate !!!!!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, I guess it's just like the man said: These conservators
have absolutely nothing to learn from re-enactors! 8)

Cheers,

Ambrosius/Mike




[/quote]

[Fabius Liberalis]

Ave Ambrosius,

Very good comment - Perhaps Mike Bishop can have a quiet word in the conservators ears sometime and put them in the know. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[ambrosius]

Ave Crispus & Liberalis,

I believe the Roman split pins have been found are all made of copper alloy, but that doesn't mean much since iron pins would be more unlikely to survive. So there may have been iron ones as well.

That's surely right. :wink:

Attaching the pins to a ring, and running a leather lace through that to keep them together, might work. We'll have to give it a try.

I tried looking at the pictures of yours & Jared's split-pins, but my
computer at work said the site was forbidden. :oops: Leastwise, I
thought I'd send some illustrations of what I meant. Trouble is, my
illustrations don't work when I try drawing them out on here. :wink:
So I'll have to settle for a description for now.

A.) Long-nosed split-pins, which would hang vertically, to prevent
them rotating and then dropping-out (unlike penanular ones).


B.)This is a variation on the 'Z-hooks/S-hooks' which Crispus's
group already use to stop their belts slipping-off the lower girth-hoops
of their Newsteads. There'd be a hook at the top, for fastening the
girth-hoops, plus another at the bottom, for threading a leather thong.
You can thus thread a thong through all the fasteners in series,
without the thong interfering with the girth-hoop fastening. This would
also mean that if one came loose from the girth-hoop (for any reason)
then it would be prevented from dropping and getting lost by all the
others, still attached. I've seen plenty of example of Roman 'S-hooks'
(usually at the ends of chains). Just not sure if they occur on military
sites as commonly as the penanular split-pins. But then, if this 'S-hook'
type of girth-fastener was as efficient at not getting lost as I'm guessing,
then it's no surprise we don't find any of them. 8) Don't know if this
helps the two of you; I've only got the antediluvian model Newstead,
with the 'Corbridge' style girth-hoops.

Cheers,

Ambrosius/Mike

[Fabius Liberalis]

Ave Ambrosius


Thank you for the additional input. After thinking about it I am sure what you suggest may be a serious possiblity. To have all the fittings needed to don a lorica quickly that are already attached to it is a distinct advantage in an emergency rather than having to go looking around for the contubernium's missing box of split pins.!!!

Is this roughly the shape of fitting you are thinking about



with the bottom loop of the S completely closed for threading the leather lace

By the way I was also unable to access Jared's website with that URL.

I wouldn't worry about having the antediluvian version of the Newstead. If more complete Newsteads are ever found this current version may go the same way!!!!! Its an evolutionary process and I dont think there is ever going to be a 'definitive' version anyway!!!