Tuniic color in the army

[claudia crisis]

Without getting too involved in debate on colours, as to whether men would be uniform some ideas spring to mind:
Economies of bulk purchasing - it makes sense that the legion would buy more than enough cloth for one soldiers tunic at a time.
It is cheaper to buy on contract for a group of men than for the individual to buy & make his own (evey sequin sewn on with his own fair hand).
That being the case, the fabric would probably be dyed (if they went to that added expense) in job lots. This would then make most tunics made in the same batch of similar colour.
Therefore the next progression from this would be that many would wear out/need replacing together. Perhaps a bunch being replaced at a time.
The cost would be passed on to the individual by regular deductions in pay so doesnt need to correspond with the actual date of replacement.

Just my lunchtime thoughts.
Probably all a load of ****

Hilary

[Tarbicus]

Just my lunchtime thoughts.
Probably all a load of ****

All sounds reasonable to me. I think as long as the thread stays well away from WHICH COLOUR was worn, then it could remain quite civilised.

[Praefectusclassis]

Economies of bulk purchasing

I suspect that is very much a too modern concept for the ancient world. (although I will immediately concede to any ancient economics expert. But shall we do the primitivists-modernists debate in Civ Talk?)

[Tarbicus]

Economies of bulk purchasing

I suspect that is very much a too modern concept for the ancient world. (although I will immediately concede to any ancient economics expert. But shall we do the primitivists-modernists debate in Civ Talk?)

This is kind of military, and there are publications out there specifically to do with supply in the military, I just don't have any.

Letters do seem to suggest clothing was requested as and when it was needed in small quantities, though. However, I'm sure there are others who could correct me on that.

[Praefectusclassis]

This is kind of military

Oh, I agree on the tunic supply problem. I just meant that if someone wanted to discuss the basic primitivity or modernity of the ancient world that that should go into Civ.

[Graham Sumner]

Jim wrote:

Here's an article on tunic colours by a highly respected Roman re-enactor and armourer, Len Morgan, who argues a block of men would be wearing the same colour.
http://www.romanarmy.net/articles.htm

Hi Jim

I read this article years ago and it was also published by the Ermine Street Guard to their credit in their own bulletin Exercitus. I was particularly disappointed to read some of the comments not least because I have known Len Morgan for many years.

"Graham Sumner's new Osprey book 'Roman Military Clothing (1)' attempts to tackle the problem of tunic colours, but also includes a number of references to cloaks. Rather than stating that this colour is right and that colour is wrong we should identify the evidence as showing that more than one colour was used. The evidence researched by Sumner might be called the Joseph syndrome, 'Coats of many colours.'

When we refer to colours, I question if what the ancients state as a certain colour relates to what we accept as that colour today. Sumner's research, like that of Nick Fuentes, covers far to broad a band of time during which we have considerable evidence of change. If we study the British army from the 16th Century to today we would be equally confused by the changes.

Sumner suggests that the colour blue is associated with the navy based on two pieces of evidence, a vexillum and a cloak. He also refers to Vegetius (Epit IV 37) that the 4th. Century British sailors died their tunics and sails to match the colour of the sea. Does this mean light or dark blue or light or dark green? The Mediterranean and the Atlantic are not the same colour.

He uses the Biblical reference Matthew 27:28 to suggest that Christ was possibly dressed as a mock centurion in a red cloak. A number of different Bible versions of this verse state that "they put on Him a scarlet robe". A good dictionary will give more than one definition of scarlet, the oldest of which is a type of light cloth that can be of any colour, not necessarily red. It comes from saqalat, a Persian word.

Luke 23:11 states that they used a gorgeous robe. Mark 15:17 and John 19:2 say the robe was purple. All four use the word robe, not cloak and three of the Gospels mock Christ by saying "Hail King of the Jews". A robe is the form of clothing more suitable for a King. This reference has no relevance to military dress."

Firstly I did not state that one particular colour was right and another wrong but as anyone who has read the first book will know, I did collect as much evidence as I could find and left it to the readers to make up their own minds. The evidence did in fact suggest that more than one colour was used . In the second volume not reviewed by Len I attempted to summarize the evidence and offered some theories. Taken together the three books do cover a vast timescale yet it is remarkable how consistent the evidence is. Certain colours regularly appeared others did not.

I presume because of my Guard connections and the fact that Len's group wear blue tunics he took my comments on the association of blue tunics with marines as a slight on his own group. Again I did not state that blue was only used by marines based just on two pieces of evidence. Len himself adds a third which I had also included, the famous quote from Vegetius. Len did not seem to notice that I included a mention and a reconstruction of a marine in a red tunic and cloak in the same book.

Part two also includes a cavalryman in a blue tunic. The quote from Vegetius says that the colour blue was 'Venetian' which was the same as the blue circus faction something I added later in the book and again which Len failed to mention. If I had found any evidence for first century Legionaries in blue tunics it would have been included and if any comes to light in future or if anyone can find any references I would be pleased to add it to subsequent editions. As an archaeological reconstruction artist I would never paint a first century Legionary in blue clothing because as yet I have no archaeological evidence to back that up.

With regards to the quote from Matthew I thought that a red cloak was far more likely to be readily to hand in an Auxiliary base than a purple robe. Late Roman illustrations of high ranking officers, dignitaries and kings all show them wearing what we would still generally call a cloak not the later medieval fur lined robe, so in my opinion the reference was valid in a study of Roman military clothing.

We should remember that in the 19th century the British army traditionally wore red but on occasion adopted blue, white, green and khaki uniforms for a variety of reasons and situations. Unfortunately in Roman studies we do not have the luxury of all the supporting evidence that we have for the British army. Nevertheless it is interesting that all those colours appear in the evidence for Roman army colours too :wink:

Graham.

[Tarbicus]

As an archaeological reconstruction artist I would never paint a first century Legionary in blue clothing because as yet I have no archaeological evidence to back that up.

I fully sympathise with that, Graham :wink: The only reason I posted the article's link was to give Francis another view on the subject and explain there are lots of different attitudes about colours and uniformity. I didn't want to dig up a can of worms, and I agree with your points concerning the omissions from the article. I remember your reference to 'Venetian' blue, and I have been trying to figure out which actual shade it would be for a potential marine impression in the future (one person's Venetian blue is another's aquamarine :? )

Certainly in my house your books keep being pulled from the shelf to check on this, that or the other.

There is a reference in Len's article to the original meaning of the colour 'scarlet', which I find interesting and could open up some possibilities, and that is it didn't necessarily mean 'red' but 'brightly coloured'. Something I've mentioned in discussion here a long time ago.

We should remember that in the 19th century the British army traditionally wore red but on occasion adopted blue, white, green and khaki uniforms for a variety of reasons and situations. Unfortunately in Roman studies we do not have the luxury of all the supporting evidence that we have for the British army. Interesting that all those colours appear in the Roman army too Wink

Now that's a really interesting point to make, because if you look at the Codex Egberti illustrations I posted blue and green are shown as colours used to clothe the milites, and not just red, which is from a time between the 19th C and the Roman period. In the very small one I think the miles holding the cloak at the right is also wearing tan. Maybe there's something in that?

When it comes to uniformity within units, well I don't know, except to say that there was very much a mix of different lorica types within units, so why not a mix of colours? This brings me back to why the Codex Egberti and Len's article were pointed out, because the one thing I keep finding myself having to do is slap myself and say "Stop it, they're not modern rankers. Stop it!" The scuta are the key to unit ID is my notion.

And while you're there, can I get a copy of your Mil Ill article as well, please?

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

also, remember, that many tunicae were purpose woven, thus negating the bolt of cloth type theory.

i think far more important than tunic color, which IMHO there was no standard for is tunic width. i am talking about the t-shirt tunicae many reenactors wear, although a few exist, the vast majority of (5th-7thc.) tunics i have examined were nearly as wide as they were long.

Mr. sumner, can you let me know if the same is true for the 1st c. in nearly all cases? I am no expert in 1st c. tunicae, but i know byzantine tunicae better.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

oh, purpose woven, i did run across one tunic made for a child that looks like it was cut from a bolt of cloth, it is in the met mseum, i dont have mey notes or catalog no on hand, but if there is a driving urge to see them i can find them, let me know

[Susanna]

May I cross the discussion with a question:

by following the argues of the Bible text...it was said:
"several bible versions said..."

Are they in English? Then you should forget about that.
Were they in Latin? There are already mistakes by translation from Aramaeic as also in ancient Greek.

As you do not know the text in Latin/Greek/Aramaeic it is senseless to discuss the etmylogy of the word "scarlet".
Which definetly comes from "saqalat" which ment in the time of Jesus "rich, heavy robe" (without any special colour).

In Medieval times it also got the meening of "red/purple rich colour", but not before.

So which Bible version are we talking about?

[Graham Sumner]

Jim wrote:

one person's Venetian blue is another's aquamarine

Hi Jim

If you or anyone else needs to know what colour Venetian blue is Vegetius says's it was the same colour as that used by the Blue circus faction. So you need to look at the blue team in any chariot racing scene.

When it comes to uniformity within units, well I don't know, except to say that there was very much a mix of different lorica types within units, so why not a mix of colours?

I myself have no problem with the idea that whole units even whole legions could be equipped with a single uniform colour, shades permitting of course. The ancient textile industry was well established and up to the task. Everyone wore clothes and probably every community had someone who did weaving. If the 17th century English New Model army were able to equip all their men in red coats I am sure the Roman army could do the same. It is also worth remembering however that the New Model soldiers had different types of hat, colours of trousers and types of equipment and armour for pikemen , musketeers, cavalry and officers.

What I would not say is that on any given day in Roman history the entire Roman army was equipped in exactly the same uniform. I doubt whether any army in history has been able to achieve that or wanted to. British soldiers today are not wearing the same uniform in Catterick or Iran or outside Buckingham Palace.

In combat scenarios any system usually starts to break down. Like the American soldiers sent straight from America to the second Gulf War in green combat uniforms but with a sand coloured camouflage helmet cover.

Nevertheless like their modern counterparts we do find that in the third century Roman soldiers of all ranks are wearing a basic uniform style of dress. Close cropped hair and tidy beard if worn. Long sleeved tunic, sagum cloak. Tight fitting trousers tucked into boots, sword worn on the left and a ring buckle belt. There is even an indication that rank or awards were distinguished by the number of bands on the cuffs like NCO stripes, a very modern uniform concept. Officers clothing was also very similar but would be of better quality materials and tailoring.

John wrote:

i think far more important than tunic color, which IMHO there was no standard for is tunic width. i am talking about the t-shirt tunicae many reenactors wear, although a few exist, the vast majority of (5th-7thc.) tunics i have examined were nearly as wide as they were long.

Mr. Sumner, can you let me know if the same is true for the 1st c. in nearly all cases? I am no expert in 1st c. tunicae, but i know byzantine tunicae better.

With regards to early imperial tunics most of the surviving examples that I have come across are wider than they are long. However the only dimensions we have for a military tunic in BGU1564 a 2nd century papyrus documnet from Egypt are slightly longer than wide. However as Jim will tell you this would make an enourmous garment. However with patient adjustment it is possible to make something out of it.

I have only seen one example of the classic short 'T' shirt type tunic beloved of re-enactors. This was one found at Mons Claudianaus in Egypt and it had also been made up from old cloaks. So I would doubt if it had belonged to one of the garrison there but it does however prove the design existed. Most surviving Roman period cloaks are also probably much bigger than those used my the majority of re-enactors.

Susanna wrote:

by following the argues of the Bible text...it was said:
"several bible versions said..."

Are they in English? Then you should forget about that.
Were they in Latin? There are already mistakes by translation from Aramaeic as also in ancient Greek.

As you do not know the text in Latin/Greek/Aramaeic it is senseless to discuss the etmylogy of the word "scarlet".
Which definitely comes from "saqalat" which ment in the time of Jesus "rich, heavy robe" (without any special colour).

Good points. Be wary of translations.

Graham.

[Tarbicus]

If you or anyone else needs to know what colour Venetian blue is Vegetius says's it was the same colour as that used by the Blue circus faction. So you need to look at the blue team in any chariot racing scene.

Thanks Graham, that's a good point and it is the shade I thought it was.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

thanks, looks like we can focus on dimensions more and color less?

hey, where is everbody in this conversation? it seems like people are afraid to actually sit down and talk about this issue like adults....

[tlclark]

Without getting too involved in debate on colours, as to whether men would be uniform some ideas spring to mind:
Economies of bulk purchasing - it makes sense that the legion would buy more than enough cloth for one soldiers tunic at a time.

....


That being the case, the fabric would probably be dyed (if they went to that added expense) in job lots. This would then make most tunics made in the same batch of similar colour.

I like this. This makes a lot of sense. So there would be variations of course from dye lot to dye lot and region to region depending on who was doing the purchasing.

Now an interesting corollary off of this is what dyes provided the greatest value for the lowest hassle. It's likely if you are talking big dye lots then it would be a readily available, durable yet affordable dye.

Madder Red perhaps? Or better yet, just natural wool.

Travis

[Matt Lukes]

hey, where is everbody in this conversation? it seems like people are afraid to actually sit down and talk about this issue like adults....

Because it's been discussed many, many, MANY times already and has become a rather sore issue with some.