classic roman legionnary wears the red roman tunic, as does many reenactors.
but some wear white, or green or blue, or a dirty gray color. so was there universal color to the roman army (red)?
or was it all a jumble of different colors?
i can understand a different legion, wearin all of a different color, but in the same legion or cohort wearing all sortsof the different colors, doesnt seem right.
so what is history?
is there some ancient archoilgical proof that the roman wore red?
same goes with shields
all romans have lorica segmentata or lorica hamata, and have a gladius and scutum, but are some roman scutum diffrent colors with different emblems? not the traditional one i see with most reenactors (but some i see different ones)
so what is history?
basically if i looked at a roman legion, could i see a whole crowd of white, green gray red etc. tunics, with all sorts of a jumble of different colrs and shileds?
please reply
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your opening a huge can here 
do a search on tunic colors.
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Chuck Russell
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Ah! But now we have Roman military equipment by Bishop and Coulston, who say on p.253: "There is no evidence to suggest that textile colours, or any form of 'uniform' in the modern sense, was used to identify the Roman soldier. Rather it was the military equipment which visually proclaimed his identity."
So yeah, a jumble of tunic colours probably. The shields are a different matter. But that too has been discussed before:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ld+emblems
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ld+emblems
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Hello Francis
Even though there is apparently "no evidence" I managed to work on three books on this subject! :wink:
I suggest you read the following
Roman Military Clothing 1,2and 3 published by Osprey and make up your own mind from the 'evidence' presented.
For other general books on Roman history which you might find useful try reading the works of Jacques Martin. They are not in English and are probably classed as children's books but they give an excellent impression of what ancient Rome and its buildings looked like with all the colour restored.
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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Seriously Francis- this is one of the most hated topics you can choose :lol: Tunica color has been discussed into the ground and you really should try a search of past threads here and on RAT v1. There will be a lot of people who are really sick of the subject so you might not get much in the way of discussion here...
As for the question of scuta colors and emblems, there are a number of depictions of the latter in various sculptures- have a look at the active thread about a database in the reenactment section- but color is a complete unknown. The only extant artifacts are from rather later than the classical high-empire period most reenactors choose, so aren't ideal evidence. Several of them, particularly the large curved Dura scutum, quite highly decorated with very detailed paintings. Particular colors, whether they had specific meaning, etc. are details we simply don't know. The literary evidence for identifiying colors/figures is dubious at best, and unfortunately, I don't think there are more than single examples of clear emblems that could be from a specific Legion. So there's no proper proof even of those- they could just as easily be personal or even artistic license put in by the tombstone sculptor. However, given no better information, most choose to see them as Legio emblems because it is the best information available.
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would have probably depended on locally avilable dyes.
Im guessing that the best legions, like the Praetorians, wore red, most would have probably worn white.
And there are mentions of some commanders ordering primrose yellow dye, presumabley for tunics.
-thanks for reading.
Sean
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Quote:Im guessing that the best legions, like the Praetorians, wore red, most would have probably worn white.
And there are mentions of some commanders ordering primrose yellow dye, presumabley for tunics.
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Hi Sean
This was why I produced my books with as much source material as I could find, backed up with references to avoid people making such guesses. If you do know a mention of commanders ordering primrose yellow tunics then please let me and the rest of us know!
It is only a hated subject because it reminds us that in spite of all we know about the Roman army we don't know everthing. No matter how much fancy metal gear you have you would still look pretty silly without a tunic! I love the subject myself and if anyone can add anything to what I have already colected then no one would be happier :lol:
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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well, the answer is WE DONT KNOW
what we do know is that the early byzantine 'tactica' (NOT arrian) prescribes an off-white tunic for regular soldiers, and more stylish colors for guards units and officers. whether this was ever followed is impossible to know.
aka., John Shook
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Quote:well, the answer is WE DONT KNOW
Hello John
Not strictly true.
We have a mass of evidence on tunic colours. In fact we probably have far more pieces of evidence for tunic colours than we have for many other items of military equipment! The real problem is how we all interpret that evidence. Sadly amongst Roman re-enactors it has become a somewhat emotive and divisive subject. :? If a new helmet was discovered then everyone would happily start copying it. However if a black tunic was found on a military site then there would be all sorts of debates and theories put forward as to why it could not be used. Actually one soldier wears a black short sleeved tunic in the Luxor Fresco so who knows.....
What is really frustrating for this debate is that so many people pick out pieces of evidence from various sources or half remembered stories and either relate them as facts, or present them to others as the only facts there are, or worse can not recall their original sources. This is what I set out to solve when I started work on the Osprey series but evidently from the many comments that I still read on this forum, like those above I seem to have failed. Instead of advancing I find I have to constantly go over old ground. :roll:
Take for example your own statement above. (and apologies for singling you out here, it is not personal many others do exactly the same  In one sentence you have summarised the same period covered in the entire book 'Roman Military Clothing 3'. Was your statement taken from that book? If so there were many other sources in that book why have you just selected that one? If not from the book, what was your source then?
The reference to yellow tunics that Sean made, to my knowledge derives from a group of re-enactors who adopted that colour and all maintained that it was mentioned in an account of Caesar's Alexandrian wars. That might be so but neither I or anyone else I asked could find it nor could the group themselves provide me with their source either! So it was not included in RMC1.
The three Osprey books are by no means exhaustive, due to lack of space and continuing research but hopefully were not selective in the evidence presented. Early on in the project I often joked that if I found evidence for Roman soldiers with yellow trousers with pink flowers on them I would have included it and in RMC3 I did! :lol:
So if anyone wishes to contribute to this debate I would urge them to read the books first (financially it makes no difference to me as I have already been paid!  ) but once in a while I would like to see something new on the subject and one of the benefits of RAT is that sometimes you do, although just as likely it is hear people telling me I got it wrong as well :oops: .
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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first off, sorry about that, i was working on a translation at the time that had my attention halfway off (which means i probably should have waited until i was done to post...)
what i meant was that regardless of all our evidence, we really dont know for sure. just like we dont know for sure if the romans ever had regulations on their men sprouting wings and flying around camp :lol:
no, i dont yet have your book (just ordered it), my source was the passage itself. but now im confused, i meant that to apply only to the early-mid 6th c., as a 'maybe it went back earlier' type of thing, your book seems to cover 4th-7th c., which would not make that a statement covering even a sizeable portion of the book.
aka., John Shook
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These are certianly not Roman illustrations, but they are closer to the time and do represent Roman soldiers at the time of Christ's crucifixion.
From the Codex Egberti made in the 14th C, they at least take us further back towards Roman times than modern, or the Napoleonic and English Civil War uniformity that I think often influences our perception of massed ranks on the battlefield. I'm not saying there was this variety in colours, but at least puts an alternative image in the mind, and shows how different the colours of soldiers' clothing could be within what must be the same unit.
[url:m8yikjer]http://www.mta.ca/faculty/arts/history/wlundell/images/egbert2.jpg[/url]
[url:m8yikjer]http://www.library.nd.edu/medieval_library/facsimiles/litfacs/egberti/82r-1E.html[/url]
These 3rd-4th C scenes from Villa del Casale depicting Roman soldiers hunting also clearly show a non-uniformity in either colours or emblems amongst what I imagine are common units of soldiers.
[url:m8yikjer]http://www.artres.com/LowRes2/TR3/F/W/Z/E/ART41468.jpg[/url]
[url:m8yikjer]http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/huntboar.jpg[/url]
[url:m8yikjer]http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/huntlion.jpg[/url]
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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John wrote:
Quote:no, i dont yet have your book (just ordered it), my source was the passage itself. but now im confused, i meant that to apply only to the early-mid 6th c., as a 'maybe it went back earlier' type of thing, your book seems to cover 4th-7th c., which would not make that a statement covering even a sizeable portion of the book.
Hi John.
I think I was more worried that you had qouted from my book and I had forgotten that was in it! It happens you know, it is called getting old!!!!
There are in fact three books covering the period from 100BC-AD600
Jim wrote:
Quote:These 3rd-4th C scenes from Villa del Casale depicting Roman soldiers hunting also clearly show a non-uniformity in either colours or emblems amongst what I imagine are common units of soldiers.
Jim most of your images show men in white tunics with grey brown trousers, look pretty uniform to me :wink:
Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.
"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.
"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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Quote:Jim most of your images show men in white tunics with grey brown trousers, look pretty uniform to me :wink:
Graham.
Ah, well Graham, I just knew some smart Alec would say that, which is why I said non-uniformity in either colours or emblems. Well covered :wink:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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so it wouldnt be really accurate to say that there could be one cohort of only red tunics? (classic)
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Quote:so it wouldnt be really accurate to say that there could be one cohort of only red tunics? (classic)
Nobody knows. Wish I could be more help, sorry.
If you showed a picture of a cohort wearing a jumble of colours a whole bunch of people would say it's wrong and give good reasons why, while others would say it could be right and give good reasons why, and another whole load of people wouldn't comment at all.
Here's an article on tunic colours by a highly respected Roman re-enactor and armourer, Len Morgan, who argues a block of men would be wearing the same colour.
[url:2news6rv]http://www.romanarmy.net/articles.htm[/url]
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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