Scutum Grip

[Cobra]

It's really difficult for me to simply write down about how techniques in detail are performed. I fight with a very large, curved Diplyon shield shield with a vertical center-grip in the SCA and I can do my swiping blocks without hindered the other shieldmen in my line(we fight with our shields touching). I tend to draw small circles with my fist in order to move the edge about to create those swiping blocks, they are not as agreesive as you might picture them. The shield moves just enough to deflect most of the power of their attack.
The school I go to teaches battlefield techniques and strategies as well as duelling techniques and strategies, like I said, we're authentic and historically accurate.

I don't know about the 5" knuckle-duster umbo, raising your shield that high to clock someone in the mouth (although as fun as it may be) would leave a big gaping hole at your lower torso AKA the perfect place for a spear shot to sneak in

As I stated before, sword use is almost universal except for those more obvious things you could point out. Sure, the type of sword leads itself toward a specific way of use hence that's why you don't use a gladius like a spatha or a spatha like a rapier or whatever else. You use it the way it's intended and designed to be used. That's why I said almost universal. However, the cutting technique of a 12th century arming sword, a spatha, and a wakizashi (japanese short sword) is very similar. The shield just occupies the other hand and it's function is seperate from that of the sword, shields don't make the sword cut or thrust which is why the fact that Japanese warriors used shields or not is not the point. Effective sword techniques remain almost universal among all swords, a thrust with a gladius is the same as an arming sword, bastard sword, and katana(somewhat modified).

There are ways of using a spear so that it doesn't get stuck in a shield, it can be done. I know it's wrong to speculate on the fighting behavior of ancient people (which I'm about to do) but I think that all the barbarians who Rome fought against, with their warrior culture society and deep involvement in fighting, would have been cunning enough to perfect their style of spearmanship to this degree as well. However, just to be safe, I'm going to have to grab a few spears and sacrifical shields and test how easy it might be to get your spear stuck in a shield. Thanks for the idea!

[Emeraldweapon7d]

i finally got to try a punch sheild last saturday. after 45 minutes of fighting with it i could barely lift my arm. it wasn't even that big or heavy, i'm a total wuss :lol:

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Cobra,

(PS, can you use your real name in your sig? RAT rules I'm afraid).

I tend to draw small circles with my fist in order to move the edge about to create those swiping blocks

I see what you're talking about when you mention 'swiping'and yes, I realise that this would be easier with a vertical grip.

The school I go to teaches battlefield techniques and strategies as well as duelling techniques and strategies, like I said, we're authentic and historically accurate.

Nevertheless, if your scholl teaches all that stuff (sounds interesting!), when they use a vertical grip they're not historically accurate.

I fight with a very large, curved Diplyon shield shield with a vertical center-grip

My shield is dished, and therefore would not be so susceptable to flipping up/down as a curved shield would.

raising your shield that high to clock someone in the mouth (although as fun as it may be) would leave a big gaping hole at your lower torso

No, my lower torso is still well-protected when I would punch my opponent in the mouth with my umbo. Only my upper leg would be unprotected.

the type of sword leads itself toward a specific way of use hence that's why you don't use a gladius like a spatha or a spatha like a rapier or whatever else. You use it the way it's intended and designed to be used. That's why I said almost universal.

I see what you mean by 'universal use of the sword'. Put like that, I agree. I thought before that you meant 'sword'/whatever shape or size..

Like I said earlier, if we don't understand why something was done back then, it's not safe to assume we got it right and they did not. That's assuming we are superior to them and I think that's nonsense. There's probably something we have overlooked..

[Tasciavanous]

Perhaps it would help to look at what the archaeological record hints at.
In Britain most of the pre-Roman Skeletal remains that show signs of death by violent action share some interesting characteristics, they have one wound to the head/shoulder areas and then multiple wounds to the body that have entered at a variety of angles. This is suggestive (but not I concede definitive proof) of one blow seriously hurting or dazing the victim and then every one in the area having a "free hack" to make sure the unfortunate soul stays down.
The fact that there is almost always a blow to the head area is to me indicative of to combatants being forced to attack the head area as the rest of the body was well protected by a shield. Extrapolating further (and I am now I admit in the realms of personal interpretation) this points at the idea that combat was very much a grinding pushing match with both sides probing and looking for opportunity rather than a full blooded berserker melee. so if the attacks are more controlled it seem fair to suggest that they would only be launched when they have a high chance of success. this might also explain why so much equipment we find seems to have little or no evidence of battle damage IE if there is little point in attacking the equipment it is left alone but the man inside/behind/ underneath that is going to take all the punishment.
It might be of interest to you that the Chertsey shield (a native Briton shield) has a horizontal hand grip too as do all the La Tene Shields it seems fair to assume that these guys knew what they were doing and had good reason for choosing the grip that they did.

[drsrob]

Perhaps it would help to look at what the archaeological record hints at.
[...]
It might be of interest to you that the Chertsey shield (a native Briton shield) has a horizontal hand grip too as do all the La Tene Shields it seems fair to assume that these guys knew what they were doing and had good reason for choosing the grip that they did.

And so did the Fayum shield!

[Tasciavanous]

And so did the Fayum shield!

Very true I was going for a bit of compare and contrast, it also seems reasonable that if all the Celtic prototypes for the Scutum have horizontal hand grips it seems reasonable to assume that was considered the best way to do it (after all the Romans were great at refining some one else's technology). So all in all we must be wary of putting our own assumptions on the reasoning of and ancient people who understood this type of warfare far better than we can ever hope to.

[ARudling]

Cobra / Michael,

Go to SFI & suggest that all swords work the same - you'll be laughed out of existance !

On a more serious level though, frankly gladius & scutum is not the same as bastard sword / katana / messer / broad-sword & targe even. Every different type of weapon has handling characteristics that make it suited to a particular style or technique.
The gladius is very good for very close contact work with short thrusts & quick concusive chops ie keeping your unarmoured arm behind your shield line.
To do this you must close as tight as possible to your enemy & constrict their movements as much as you can, especially when they have a spear the large scutum provides you the cover to get in this close.

On the Japanese master teaching western weapons by just modifying his techniques though, that frankly comes across as arrogant crap.
Their are quite a few Western treatise & schools of weapons training that are now being translated & interpreted by a large number of scholars around the world, as well as a growing number of practitioners (including myself).
I would seriously have a look at the various books out their, a lot of what they do is very different from what most people expect. :wink:

Oh - I take it you have read Stephen Hands treatise on shield use in SPADA 1 ?

Take care
Adam

[floofthegoof]

To be complete, this is about the only evidence I know of a vertical grip, check the guy on the left:[url:fpta1itg]http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raider5/greece/thessaloniki/arch_of_galerius/DSCN8616.JPG[/url]. These are seen as Sarmatian mercenaries.
Sure, he's not holding the scutum but the lancea (I must admit I don't have a clue how he's carrying his shield!!!), but the grip attachment seems to be vertical.
here we have another one from the Arch of galerius:
[url:fpta1itg]http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raider5/greece/thessaloniki/arch_of_galerius/DSCN8637.JPG[/url]
On the right, a horizontal grip, but on the left, a ???

I wanted to point out taht both of these examples appear to be round sheilds, and as such you could either let your arm hang down for long term comfort with the grip horizontal, or lift it up for a vertical grip. If your elbow is tied to the center it could be interchangeable.

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Rich,
Maybe, but I doubt all are round. Nevertheless, my point was about the grip, which seems to be on the edge rather than in the middle..

[Tarbicus]

my point was about the grip, which seems to be on the edge rather than in the middle..

Being round with a handgrip at the edge, it could be a classic hoplon with the forearm support not visible? Who knows where the sculptor drew his inspiration from, or even Galerius? Or maybe the missing figure is Persian with Macedonian/Greek influences (didn't the Persians use the phalanx at this time)?

addendum: Or did the Romans use the phalanx at this time against the Persians?

Cheers.

[Odenathus]

Hi,

First post here, so treat me gently!

With regards to the figures shown on the Arch of Galerius, their identification as Sarmatian mercenaries is unlikely.

They are surrounding the Emperor and as such are more likely to be Guards of some sort. I have certainly seen them identified as cavalry as one is leading a horse; as this is the only horse shown IIRC, it could be that he is simply leading the Emperor's horse for him.

They are more than likely in my opinion the only representations of what Roman soldiers looked like at the turn of the fourth century, most others being Classicised images.

Regards,
Craig Davey

[ambrosius]

I wanted to point out taht both of these examples appear to be round sheilds, and as such you could either let your arm hang down for long term comfort with the grip horizontal, or lift it up for a vertical grip. If your elbow is tied to the center it could be interchangeable.

That's a very good point! And further to that, if a shield is round (and
has just the grip at the centre - with nothing to attach the elbow to)
then how would you tell if it's a horizontal or vertical grip? (Aside from
cheating and looking to see which way up the facing design stands.) :o

If it is a circular shield, then you can adopt whatever grip suits best in
each given situation (if there's ever a time when you feel the need to
hold it with a vertical grip). :wink:

Ambrosius

[adamparsons]

Sorry been on RAT before in version 1 but have not posted for ages- and I can't seem to use my old one anymore.

anyway.... I couldn't find any reference in this thread to the Doncaster shield evidence (UK)? That has a verticle grip?

Any reason why people are discounting it?

Adam

[Robert Vermaat]

We dont't. We've already established that vertical grips did exist, in celtic shields (because of the vertical spine), but somehow we discontinued in most shields we could find evidence of during Roman times.

[adamparsons]

O.K so the Doncaster shields is equivocal on an argument such as this. But I think, given it has a case to be made for it being roman (be that auxiliary or legionary whatever you fancy), it is worth mentioning.

I personally have fought with many shield types, all good replicas (not modern plywood) and have found the vertical and horizontal grip both easy to use. However, as has already been said, it gives a differing range of use. I wouldn't fancy trying a scutum with a vertical handle though, trying to counter a blow with the edge of an extremely curved shield as I would with vertical handles and flat board shields seems unnecessary

I must say I have never had a shield "flip" either vertically or horizontally as long as the grip is not made too long, which is a common fault amongst reconstructed shields.

Adam