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Why did the scutum have a horizontal grip?
#1
The other day when I was looking as scutums, I was surprised when I noticed that the grip was horizontal not vertical. Now the only ones I saw were from reenactors. At first I thought that maybe it was just the way they preferred it, then immediately realized that they go for authenticity, they wouldn’t change the design for personal comfort.

So I was wondering why? I would have thought that the grip would have been vertically so you could easily hold it and at the same time use your forearm to help push up against it, plus being horizontal I would assume that when the scutum is struck on its upper part that it would slide into your head or chest, where as a vertical grip allows you more control from toggling up or down.

I tried to visualize why, then realized that it forced you to face your opponent head on, you had to turn your body directly into him, facing him, since it would be hard on the wrist if you didn’t and at the same time, it didn’t allow you to turn and hide behind your shield, but the shield would still flop up or down when hit from the top or bottom, where a vertical wouldn’t.

The only thing I can come up with, is that the higher ups decided that forcing an aggressive head on stance was the motivating factor. Better to take the stance and have the scutum toggle up or down, depending where its hit, rather then have the troops mentally take a defensive position behind the shield.

Can someone elaborate on why the grip of the scutum is horizontal not vertical? Do you agree with my conclusion or did I just mist the obvious.

Thanks
Steve
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#2
Two reasons.

1.) The horizontal grip is far more comfortable on the wrist after a long march. It is easier to hold for a long battle without tiring.

2.) The horizontal grip allows you to rest the top edge on your shoulder which helps distribute the weight and also allows you to push back with your body.

Travis
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

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#3
I'm not really sure I understand your explanations, sorry...

The grip for the scutum was horizontal so you could hold it with your whole arm straightened up instead of lifting it like it was a buckler.

The reason is that the sctutum was too heavy to lift it all the time, and this position also allows for a better control of the sides.

Now, if you bend your arm a little, you'll also be able to use your elbow to control it, and that way, use it as a weapon if need be it.

Lastly, using your knee, you can not only control it better, but also push it (and if you bend your shoulder against it, like a hoplite, it would help to get a complete hold of your scutum with full force. This was probably not used in formation, but in siege operations it could be useful.)

I am sure other members will be able to give you a more detailed explanation, as I have never gotten a scutum myself... :-P P

best regards!
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#4
If I understand you correctly, you’re saying you slide your arm through it and it basically rest on your bicep.

I would have never thought that, thanks.
Steve
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#5
As Travis says, the horizontal grip is much better in several ways. I'm not sure what you mean about facing your opponent--with the horizontal grip your left side and leg are forward, the shield braced firmly against the shoulder, and the head turned to that side. It's a very strong and aggressive stance, allowing a lot of force to be put behind the shield when charging. The Greek hoplon or aspis gives a similar effect, but the scutum is more mobile.

It's easy to maneuver the scutum, though it generally doesn't have to do much more than go up and down. Very simple to do. It's much easier to hold it up over the head of the man in front of you with the horizontal grip, as shown on the Mainz column base.

By "toggling", presumably you mean that the top of the shield swings out when the bottom part is hit? I saw that happen when a clever kid kicked a scutum--the top edge whacked him in the head! We laughed. (Perfect illustration of why karate didn't rule battlefields.) But there are folks who have found that bracing the left leg against the shield as well as the shoulder makes it rock-solid. Can't do that with a vertical grip.

Note that it does seem that at least a few Roman shields had vertical grips. Horizontal is definitely the rule, though.

Valete,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
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#6
Quote:If I understand you correctly, you’re saying you slide your arm through it and it basically rest on your bicep.

I would have never thought that, thanks.

Oh No! That would be so painfull Confusedhock:

You just hold the grip in your hand, just like you carry a suitcase..

Regards,
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

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>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#7
The grip for the scutum was horizontal so you could hold it with your whole arm straightened up instead of lifting it like it was a buckler.

Sorry, now I’m confused, do you hold the grip in your hand or do you hold it with your whole arm straightened up. maybe I misunderstood what is ment by "hold it with your whole arm"
Steve
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#8
Quote: do you hold the grip in your hand or do you hold it with your whole arm straightened up.
You hold the grip with your hand.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#9
Quote:Two reasons.

1.) The horizontal grip is far more comfortable on the wrist after a long march. It is easier to hold for a long battle without tiring.

2.) The horizontal grip allows you to rest the top edge on your shoulder which helps distribute the weight and also allows you to push back with your body.

Travis

I've come to the same conclusion. It makes the most practical military-application sense.
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-Tom
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#10
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/throw2.jpg

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/pilum8.jpg

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/advance.jpg

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/drill.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/legioxxxcoh1/A ... Camera.jpg

Those help? Funny, I don't seem to have many combat-like shots from the right angle, only from the front. But other sites probably have a few.

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#11
Thanks, a pictures worth a thousand words.

I've never held a scutum before; I was assuming that the arm, strait down next to you, bent at the elbow with your hand held outwards, held the scutum out in front, as your arm got tired, the shield tended to drop.

Now that I see the arm is held downwards, it all makes sense.

This is a good example of how you could only learn so much from books and sometimes you need the actual experience.
Steve
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#12
Quote:Now that I see the arm is held downwards, it all makes sense.

This is a good example of how you could only learn so much from books and sometimes you need the actual experience.

As tlclark pointed out, holding it down gives you a lot more body support behind the shield to fend off blows.
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PATER FAMILIAS DOMVS VRSVM
-Tom
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#13
Quote:
Steve Sarak:1m4ld3fa Wrote:Now that I see the arm is held downwards, it all makes sense.

This is a good example of how you could only learn so much from books and sometimes you need the actual experience.

As tlclark pointed out, holding it down gives you a lot more body support behind the shield to fend off blows.

It also minimizes your aspect. Instead of presenting your whole front to the enemy, you present only the left shoulder, and you are completely covered by the scuta.

I've often wondered at depictions of Greek hoplites with the apsis/hoplon. Many are shown completely naked except for shield, helmet and greaves.

But check out the angle of the shield in this figurine.

http://www.coas.howard.edu/classics/images/hoplite.jpg

The shield affectively covers the entire body from the angle of the attacker. If you were REALLY good at using that shield, you get by with only a helmet, greaves and a spear.

Not that I recommend that of course! Confusedhock:

I think this demonstrates that the scutum, effectively used, really was the first and best defense and that armor is a last defense and far less crucial and can be less effective.

...which means...*pause*

LEATHER ARMOR!!

Ok, I'm done now.

Travis
Theodoros of Smyrna (Byzantine name)
aka Travis Lee Clark (21st C. American name)

Moderator, RAT

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Oh! and the Toledo helmet .... oh hell, forget it. :? <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" />:?
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#14
It's also worth considering that just as Ancient shields did not all have horizontal grips, Medieval shields were apparently not all uniformly using vertical grips. An interesting point when one considers the shape of the 'Viking' Round Shield, perhaps such a shield could have been held in either fashion?
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#15
Hello there!

There is an training and experimental developpement around the late roman fighting (spatha+scutum) in video

A working about the possibility using the scutum in dynamic attack

less horizontal grip the technics posibility are poor.

The point of view is only an infantry front line type and no an gladiatorial fight. The soldier must rest in line and don't turn around the ennemy (a instinctive fault on a lot of video... )

see better sequences: 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13... (no choregraphic training!!!)

http://schnucks0.free.fr/AtelierFilm

What do you think about?
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