You are completely right, and i'm saying it because we have Thucydides telling us that exactly this happened some times. In the battle of Belium, the Athenians flanked the Thebans and they attacked their own line. They killed eachother for some time before they realized that they were killing their brothers.
Other occasions where the enemies were not sure of the identity of eachother are also described during the Peloponnesian War.
One can only guess what was happening in Hellenistic battles!
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
And from personal experience when I was serving: In the morning we could tell the difference between us and the Turks. After dusk it was another issue. If you move in the border at night you try to give password correct and..pray!
One way "friendly fire" casualties were limited is that units within the line of the phalanx tended to attack those directly opposite themselves. The rule is simple- kill whoever is in front of you. Even when it would have been obviously (to us as armchair generals)advantageous to break off pursuit and roll up the line this often did not occur- think of the 1,000 picked Argives at Mantinea and how that battle should have gone. I wonder if shield blazons based on poleis facilitated envelopment and more complex maneuvers, avoiding what happened at Delium.
Paul M. Bardunias
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A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
Interesting topic.I have few interesting questions and views of my own.
Can we be sure that crimson clothing is plain crimson.And that our notion of ''undecorated'' is same as ancient Spartan notion of ''undecorated''. What Xenophon said, and what we know of ''war colors'' can apply to a whole range of plain, semi plain with crimson being the most represented, or lightly to heavily decorated pieces of clothing with crimson base etc..Am I right.We would describe all of them as simply - crimson.
I am not very keen on Spartans being infamous for their plain style theory. What is the base for that? What contemporary source? And art certainly does not seem anything more unique or plain than other Greek states at the time. And even those rims with wavy pattern show everything but plain style.
Can we be sure of any uniformity in pre Peloponnesian war era(or even then for that matter). I can't. Spartans could probably be distinguished not by cloaks, not by some hairstyles or uniforms but by morae symbols and physique/in average that is (after all they were the only systematically raised warriors with the exception of some rich people in other states).
I support this by the situation in Plateia when Athenians and Spartans changed places, and the change was not immediately noticed,and was noticed only by Greeks fighting for the Persians...If the difference between Spartan hoplites and others was so big, the Eastern warriors would certainly recognize them immediately..Especially because they have seen Spartans before. To them morae symbols, probably the biggest difference, were not understandable...everything else they just did not notice.
Actually the Eastern troops at Platea or at least their generals could distinguish between the Greeks. Mardonius according to Herodotus was also modifying his dispositions not have the Atheninas opposite his Persians. Its plain he could make the difference between the Athenians and the others.
Honestly it is quite different than actual bright red so commonly used today - and projected into ancient hoplite apperance. :roll:
As for positioning, a bit far fetched assumption there, both yours and mine. Mardonius did modify positions, but it does not mean he personally or any other Persian distinguished Greeks, he may have simply acted after being alerted by Greeks protesting.
My judgement may have been clowded by ancient greek battles site, so the example might not be very good one.For either mine point or yours.
But nonetheless, I am sure Greeks could distinguish themselves, I am sure each army could distinguish friend from foe in majority of situations - with that dust, even uniform symbols could be mixed up...
But I am just not that keen on theory they were very different in clothing (if had any) and armor ON the battlefield. And two guys with long hair and crimson-ish clothing were instantly Spartans - not buying it. I personally think, body strength, scars, posture and probably whip scars on backs distinguished Spartans from others in battlefield..Alongside some characteristic shield devices (personal,family,morae or whatever theory will be accepted) and in average better equipment.
What interests me the most is the use or accepted field improvisation that shortens chiton, or better say remove, tuck or fold the part from the belly button up.
I absolutely see no point whatsoever in having that extra piece of clothing under the already lined armor, it is not protective, and when I work in field in summer, which is much milder than in Greece, around 32-35 C at most...I can not stand even the tank top on my body.
Also in what way did the clothing of royal members differ from those regular homoioi?
And also did Greeks had some religious custom where they believed warriors should descend into Hades in their best outfit, as I heard somewhere? Do you think they had clothes for practice and clothes for war. Sewn by wives, mothers etc..I think Pressfield painted that kind of picture,not sure though.
You can add olive oil, plaster and madder and milk. (milk based white survives on pottery) Laconian madder was not highly regarded but did the job. We can assume that the Spartan royal houses might have access to Thessalian or Amorginian madder.
I thought I'd throw in a, perhaps, marginally related experience here. Back in the summer before the movie 300 came out, I attended a panel with the film's author (Frank Miller), director, and a couple of the actors, including star Gerard Butler. In discusing their experiences during shooting, Butler noted that the most irritating thing he experienced was trying to simulate combat while wearing the long cloaks used in the film. He said that he actually suffered significant pain after a while from the damned thing rubbing on his shoulder and found that it was always getting in the way of fighting effectively. He then made the observation that "the last thing some of those guys must have seen was a spear coming at them while they struggled with their cloak." Deceived by Miller's (deliberately) innacurate art work, Butler was, in fact, making a good practical case for not wearing cumbersome cloaks into battle.
Sadly, these colorful and romantic props for films like 300 and the earlier (and at least slightly more historically accurate) 300 Spartans (not to mention a plethora of Italian 'peplum' films of the 60s)continue to misinform the general popular impression of how hoplites dressed for a fight. Interestingly enougth, though Miller didn't seem to be aware of the cloak issue itself, he did note that he had originally tried to be more accurate in portraying Spartan battle gear, but since the results made his warriors look "like lobsters," he opted for the scantily-clad style seen in his original drawings and the movie. - Fred
It\'s only by appreciating accurate accounts of real combat past and present that we can begin to approach the Greek hoplite\'s hard-won awareness of war\'s potential merits and ultimate limitations.
The shoulder hurts because of the rubbing with the shield when you fight. The inner side of the rim keeps hitting it. Same happens to the outer side of our left knee. More so there.
A correctly sized chlamys is absolutely no problem when fighting with a shield and spear or sword. I never stepped on it, never did it cover my face nor interfered with my weapon. In fact is seems like a garment designed for war! I can fight with it equally well when having it worn normally covering my front, when pulled back with the pin on my throat, or half of it pulled back over my left shoulder.
At some point i might post videos of a fight with blunt weapons,wearing a chlamys.
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
Thanks, very interesting! Once again I stand to have a better-informed person reduce my ignorance. I should point out, however, that Mr. Butler's shoulder irritation was clearly not from his shield, though such problems certainly could have affected a real ancient warrior. Perhaps, as suggested by your comments, the cast's cloaks for the film were improperly sized. Also, actual combat (real or simulated) is/was probably a good deal less atheletic than the sometimes spectacular stunts Butler and his cohorts had to perform, while generally being much shorter in duration than the long hours over consecutive days invovled in a movie shoot. Still, it does seem to me that the majority of the ancient depictions of hoplites in battle that I've seen do not include cloaks, and it is at least possible that the minority who do show them might be displaying an 'artistic' flair for the dramatic not unlike that of modern film-makers. Indeed, this could be an approach similar to the one that produced so many depictions of 'nude' hoplites (perhaps an even more common occurance than pictures of them wearing cloaks during combat). Anyway, I can certainly see taking a risk of a cloak getting in the way (maybe even fatally) if it brought somethng of value to the fight (especially if, as per your description, that risk is quite small). In your experience, what does wearing a cloak add to combat effectiveness? And please believe me, I'm not trying to be snarky here, but really would like to know to better inform my own image of hoplite battle. - Fred
It\'s only by appreciating accurate accounts of real combat past and present that we can begin to approach the Greek hoplite\'s hard-won awareness of war\'s potential merits and ultimate limitations.
I just thought I'd let you guys know that Haematite will dye cloth a muddy brown colour. I have experimented with it in the past and it isn't very colourful!!
It's good to give a base colour for the brighter roots and minerals which could be used in compliment with haematite to make it darker and richer, but not on its own I think
Hello.
The cloak does not add anything particular to the fight itself. It can make your apearence more imposing, especially if you don't have armour. It can protect you from cold, (which was the reason i was wearing it (yes Greece can be very cold). It can even make your legs less of a target, not that they're better protected but they're less visible.
In the end, if it doesn't get in the way at all, why NOT wear it?
None of us had any problems i should note. Nor was i ever tempted to try and grab it...I'd be a dead man, and it's difficult to reach there anyway.
You wouldn't want to wear it if you had to pass through spiky bushes, but this is not what hoplites usually did.
" olive oil, plaster, madder and milk" If you have tried all these with hematite could you please tell us if they had any results?
@ Giannis.
Carryin chalmys or cloack in a deliberate fight is a question of personal preference.
I find it a hindrance both in hoplite warfare or any type of medieval combat.
My martial arts instructors also had mixed views on the subject.
It can be used to blind an opponent in non-hoplite warfare though.
Yet another interesting comment based on practical experience! Perhaps the negative aspects of wearing a cloak were indeed real (no matter how modest) and tended to over-ride any preference for wearing that garment into battle, save on occasions when combat occured in especially cold weather and comfort became a much larger than usual factor. Since most phalanx actions occured during the summer campaigning season, such instances would have been relatively rare and this might have informed the paucity of cloak-wearing hoplites on display in ancient artwork. I have seen it proposed that javelineers in classical Greece might have wrapped cloaks about their free arm (we're talking about men without a pelte) as a protection for close combat if forced upon them. Seems to me, in fact, that a cloak would be even more of a hinderance to a javelinman than a hoplite, thus wrapping of the cloak might have been just as much (if not more) a way to get it out of the way. - Fred
It\'s only by appreciating accurate accounts of real combat past and present that we can begin to approach the Greek hoplite\'s hard-won awareness of war\'s potential merits and ultimate limitations.
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