+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Greek Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: Miltary clothing in Sparta (/showthread.php?tid=19893)
Miltary clothing in Sparta - joeandmich - 12-01-2011
Hello guys I have a question to ask you. In the times of the battle of Thermopoli did Spartan men wear chitons, exomis or tunics as standard military clothing? Also did they wear short or long chlamys (cloaks)?
Thanks,
Joe
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - caiusbeerquitius - 12-01-2011
Wrong subforum.
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - joeandmich - 12-01-2011
I tried entering this in the Greek reenactment and reconstruction sub forum but it went here instead. Maybe it's because I used my iPhone.
Sorry
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - Gaius Colletti - 12-02-2011
It is likely any of them could have been used. Sparta was infamous for their lack of detail and grandeur in their city (as well as most luxuries, statues, reliefs...). Since they left little behind, and most of what we have is recorded by the Athenians it is hard to say.
It would IMO not be wrong to portray them in either. There was no "standard" military uniform back then that we know of. However I do remember on a thread sometime ago Giannis ( I may be mistaken) said something about chlamys not being used in battle
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - hoplite14gr - 12-02-2011
The luxurious draped Ionic chiton was probably a no no.
Historical sources and contemporary art tend to support this vew.
The doric chiton - 2 rectangular pieces of cloth, opening for head and sewn at the sided was the basic item. The heavy woolen cloack woud complete the image.
Kind regards
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - joeandmich - 12-02-2011
Was the Doric chiton made of light wool, cotton or linen?
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - tenerife_boy - 12-02-2011
mostly wool
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - Ghostmojo - 12-02-2011
I'm inclined to think in the late archaic/early classical period - i.e. the Persian Wars, the Spartans were at least by now wearing a more uniform colour of crimson regardless of what type of chiton they wore. The famous lambda " Ʌ " would not yet be adopted for their shields for perhaps another fifty years (who can say for sure?), and so personal or tribal motifs would have been prominent.
Some recent images of the Spartans at Thermopylai in 480BC (Osprey/elsewhere) show soldiers totally indistinguishable from any other Greeks of the time. I think that unlikely even at this early period.
BTW - if you want to read a complete load of ill-researched tosh about the Spartans (in many respects) read last month's Wargames Illustrated (November 2011) which does a good line in classics like:
".. but the Theban king Epaminondas finally ended their reign in 371 at Leuktra."
and I love this one:
"... By this later period the Spartan hoplites differed from most other hoplites by wearing red cloaks and tunics, and painting a lambda (The Greek 'L' - for Lacedaemonia, the area around Sparta. When the shield was raised for battle, and thus rotated 90°, it looked like an inverted V.) on their shields ..."
Priceless :lol: :roll:
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - hoplite14gr - 12-03-2011
Red was common military colour. Sprtans with their ample hematite (iron ore) resources in Sellasia could use it easily.
According to sources use of monograms for city emblem can be attested after 420 B.C.
They appear easlier on pottery but in hoplite-race and they might be shield used only for the occassion.
The clothes were linen and wool originally in Greece. Cotton started appearing much in Hellenistic period
Kind regards
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - Theodosius the Great - 12-03-2011
Quote:The clothes were linen and wool originally in Greece. Cotton started appearing much in Hellenistic periodBut cotton would be unaffordable to most, right? Maybe officers could afford such material? Or maybe a king could award cotton clothes as gifts to his soldiers. Even then it seems wasteful to wear out expensive cotton on a military campaign.
~Theo
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - Ghostmojo - 12-06-2011
Quote:According to sources use of monograms for city emblem can be attested after 420 B.C.Of course. We first hear of them as common Lakedaimonian emblems at 1st Mantinea 418BC, but they may well have appeared earlier; perhaps after the reorganisation that took place before the Peloponnesian Wars broke out? Nobody can say for certain, but Agis II's army might not have been the first to sport them...
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - PMBardunias - 12-07-2011
Sparta's coast produced Murex snails, which depending on how they were processed gave a brilliant purple dye or a deep crimson. As to when the lambda appears, I have always been partial to the notion that it was instituted first among the freed helots that were made hoplites. These would need some blazon and obviously have no traditional heraldry of their own.
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - Ghostmojo - 12-08-2011
Quote:Sparta's coast produced Murex snails, which depending on how they were processed gave a brilliant purple dye or a deep crimson. As to when the lambda appears, I have always been partial to the notion that it was instituted first among the freed helots that were made hoplites. These would need some blazon and obviously have no traditional heraldry of their own.
I have been waiting for your own worthy contributions to this thread Paul, and concur with your views to a point. The mollusc fact is interesting and well attested. On the other issue, I myself am actually partial to the theory that the Lambda Λ appeared in order to blur the fact that the previously largely Spartan ranks now contained Periokoi, Mothakes, possibly Trophimoi mixed with the previously dominant (and now somewhat numerically reduced) Homoioi - so no longer just Spartiates, but others from Lakonia/Lakedaimon too - soon to be joined by Neodamodeis/Brasideioi (brigaded separately); Hypomeiones and others as time went on.
Although generally thought of as being highly elitist and exclusive, ultimately the Spartans were pragmatic enough to recognise a wind of change was blowing through the ranks. It would make it difficult for any opponent to know exactly how may Spartiates they faced, since these guys themselves would almost certainly be in the front ranks along most of the line (except for the Skiritai); and so it suited their modus operandi perfectly.
The army was reorganised some time between the great earthquake of 464BC and the outbreak of the First Peloponnesian War in 459BC and these heraldic changes might have been instituted then. Alternatively, perhaps before the outbreak of major hostilities thirty years later in 429BC. In any event they were in place slightly over a decade later at Mantinea.
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - hoplite14gr - 12-12-2011
My opinion is that us modern folk tend to be very impressed with Spartan homioi elite hoplites and forget that the perioikoi hoplites existed too.
The organized form - even of citizen militias - meant that some regulations and standards did apply.
Except Spartan hair styles and walking sticks there seem not to have been a particularly Spartan cloth item in the ancient period. Red was a common military color even in non spartan armies.
Kind regards
Re: Miltary clothing in Sparta - Ghostmojo - 12-14-2011
The introduction of state or unit shield devices was surely a cert at some point?
How on earth would the various Greeks know who the hell was who once a melee had commenced; with them all wearing a variety of shield patterns and clothing colours, helmets and plumes etc.?
It must have been pandemonium. There must have been many battles where allies ended killing each other instead of the enemy - friends attacking friends etc.
This situation would be exacerbated once they developed more mobile battlefield tactics. Not so much of a problem when two long lines marched across a field towards each other - but definitely one once the units started thinking two-dimensionally!