reconstructing tiberius sword

[tDub248]

so how would you go about doing it on a helmet? I'm assuming it has an iron core with brass repouss'e work on top?

[maarten]

dear Travis, Brian,

I indeed use leather and a leather bag filled with sand as a backing when I make the plates and other repousee. I have made several small iron, horn and wooden instruments with different heads to rub the figurines into the brass foil. This works very well, and does not damage the brass. Like Brian I also turn the foil/sheet many times to get the right result.

Extreemly nice work on the swords and helmet Brian.

Maarten

[Doc]

Just a point Maarten and Brian,

The majority of these scabbard motifs were punched out not repousse'. The material looks foil thin but in reality it really is not. There is no reason to believe that these types of swords were hand worked in the fashion suggested. There are more complex motifs that can be found on the Vindonissa scabbard and Valkenburg scabbard and yet these appear not to have been repousee'.

My two cents.

[PhilusEstilius]

Hi Maarten. Thank you for your kind remarks when it comes to fine repouss'e I have a selection of leather working tools which have spoon shapes and differing size balls on them, I even use an old Biro ball pen that has no ink left in it for some work such as scribbing.

[PhilusEstilius]

Travis. That particular helmet is infact brass it should be yellow but the printer cartridge was running down when those pics' were done, for that one I used both pitch and plasticine the figures are hammered into the brass. For the inside work I used the plasticine as a block and for the outside I filled each figure with pitch and worked a figure at a time on a round stake.
I was allowed to measure the original at the museum in Edinburgh and it was interesting just how thin the upper area of this helmet is, the upper third of the bowl is in the region of only around 5 thou of an inch thick. How it ever survived in Roman times is realy interesting let alone it still being here today.

[PhilusEstilius]

PierPaolo. I must apologize for taking over your topic for I became a bit distracted when I saw the work that Maarten had done, this is what happens at times when one finds very good work that others have done please excuse me.

[Matt Lukes]

Dear Brian, Travis,

I used brass foil with a thickness of 0.06 mm, so very tin, like the original. The plates were filled up on the back filled with tin solder to prevent dents. They are now very strong and no dents have occurred yet.

I would very much like to see the plates you made, Brian.

Maarten

Maarten- how do you know the originals were so extremely thin? Original objects with raised decoration like this that I've examined are actually very thick- 0.5-0.7mm and balteus plates like the well known Lupercal type are listed as being as much as 1mm thick. The decorative plates of the Fulham Scabbard, for example, is definitely not filled with anything, and therefore must be thick too...

Matt

[munazio planco]

avete omnes


Sorry but I still don't hundestand....how is exacly long the blade (only the blade) of tiberius sword? and the scabbard?

Brian Stobbs you did one of the most exact reconstruction of this sword..please..help me....

valete Munazio

[PhilusEstilius]

Matt. If you go to page one of this topic I have put some links to my repro' of the Fulham sword scabbard decoration pieces, these are hand worked repouss'e as indeed were the originals. I do agree with you that various beltplates were made at times with thicker metal, however the Lupical theme type plates and also Emperor and Cornucopia are plates that appear in several forms thick and thin the thin ones of course being backed onto other metal ie skinned types.
The Tiberius Sword decoration on the original is indeed very fine work that would have been made by hand worked repouss'e, for there are many items of equipment that were made by artist craftsmen.
Here is a link to the original Trimontium Helmet which I have reproduced, and the top third of this bowl is only in the region of about 5-6 thou' of an inch in thickness. Therefore the craftsman who made that would have had to do the upper decoration by hand or rip thro' the bowl with a hammer and punch.

http://www.listuo.com/sextima/roman10.jpg

[munazio planco]

avete Omnes


8) please....somebody...could inform me...how is long the blade of Toberius sword....and the scabbard?


thank you in advance

Munazio Planco

[Doc]

PierPaolo,

I think that the dimensions were given by Tony Drake at the beginning of this thread.

However, this will be my last response on this topic on this thread because I feel that we are beginning to deviate too much

Brian,

I would agree with hand worked repousee' if the pieces we are discussing were unique. However, there is no evidence to suggest that they were unique. Handworking several hundred pieces in that fashion to equip hundreds of soldiers seems unlikely.

Also if one looks at how "crisp" and linear the lines are, they would come from a punch.

I am not saying that hand worked repoussee was impossible. All I am saying is that it is improbable in this case. Furthermore, none of the thinner belt plates of the types that you mentioned were found with any backing.

The helmet you refer to is a sports helmet and the brass is a skinning feature-no? Is it not true that the bowl under the brass decoratvie part is iron?

Would a sword used in combat not be subject to more "violent" treatment than a sports helmet?

I know that "cavalry sports" was not a fruity and fake activity but it was not combat.

[PhilusEstilius]

Paolo. The helmet I have shown is made of brass or what might be considered as yellow bronze, the neck guard and peak are in the region of 20-22 gauge in thickness however where the bowl has been beaten out the upper area has become thinner. This is where I have pointed out that the decoration in the upper area may well have been hand worked rather than by hammering. This helmet is not a skinned item and does not have an inner helmet of iron.
There are indeed skinned beltplates of the types I mention infact there are a varied selection of Lupercal and Emperor types, and the crisp lines you mention can be achieved just as easy by hand working thin metal.
Then of course we have to consider how many Fulham or Tiberius scabbards have been found, or ever will be for that matter only the one of each.

[PhilusEstilius]

PierPaolo. The blade size has been given by Tony at page 1 where he has given the length however he has not explained that with this type of blade it varies in it's width.
The blade is 7cm at the top near the hand guard then becomes about 6cm just some 40mm down from the top, then after about 70-80mm it narrows down to around 55mm then the long point begins about 18cm from the end of the blade.

[munazio planco]

avete Omnes



So the blade of tiberius sword is 57 cm...if the blade is 57 cm the scabbard is very very big...

thank you to everybody


valete Munazio

[PhilusEstilius]

PierPaolo. Where Tony mentions the length as being 57.50cm the scabbard is not realy much longer than the blade, infact I like to explain that with every sword it is maybe the same as a hand in a glove which depends upon the craftsman who makes it.