Kalkreise dates to 15-16 AD Germanicus Campaign-NOT Varus!

[Robert Vermaat]

OK, I finally managed to read the article (it took a bit of time because Der Spiegel wants money for it which I won't pay), and it is not <em>quite</em> what you wrote, Dan..<br>
<br>
Summarising, Spiegel names a lot of names but no references, so I can't check any of their claims. However, what they say is roughly this: after the defeat of Varus, Rome took a year to regroup and them launched years of revenge-attacks, bloody slaughter and scorched earth, countered by a guerilla-war lead by Arminius ('Che Guevara/Vietnam' is used), who led an enemy who would not be drawn into a battle. They mention other battles, very costly defeats for the Romans, and have Orosius say that the rel battle took place later.<br>
<br>
But Orosius, of course, wrote much much later (during the early 5th century). More serious indeed is the criticism from the Tübinger numismatcian Reinhard Wolters, who has re-evalued the coin finds, and proposes that issues dating between 9 and 16 AD do not come from Varus, but from a later battle.<br>
<br>
For even the critics do not doubt that Kalkriese was a battlefield, and that an ambush took place from behind a wall, and that large numbers of Romans died there in a big defeat.<br>
Sorry dan, no "overwhelming evidence that is was a Roman military outpost" is mentioned, and no one thinks it "absurd from the beginning to believe this small site with an isolated pocket of artifacts could be conected with an Army numbering tens of thousands of men, in a column which stretched for miles" either.<br>
The critics only think that Varus was defeated elsewhere, but that Kalkriese was possibly the spot where Germanicus evaded a defeat, but at the cost of his supply column and thousands of lives.<br>
<br>
If you want, I can print the German text here.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Chariovalda]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>More serious indeed is the criticism from the Tübinger numismatcian Reinhard Wolters, who has re-evalued the coin finds, and proposes that issues dating between 9 and 16 AD do not come from Varus, but from a later battle.<hr><br>
<br>
Unfortunately, it appears Wolters published this in one of the "Klio" issues in 2003. Well, Klio costs 200+ euros per 2 issues (that's a whole year's worth) and it doesn't sell separate articles on-line, like many decent scientific journals, so...<br>
<br>
And you read the article too fast, Vorty. The argument is, like I wrote before, that the ABSENCE of the Lugdunum II as might no longer be proof for the dating of the Kalkriese encounter BEFORE 10 AD. It might - just might - have taken place between 12 and 14 AD, before - so Wolters, if the Spiegel article is right - the Lugdunum II as was coined, again, according to Wolters' controversial theory.<br>
<br>
For those of you who can read German, it might be useful download the following pdf file:<br>
<br>
www.geschichte.uni-osnabr...hlacht.pdf<br>
<br>
It's a fairly recent (2002) overview of the literary and archaeological evidence concerning the location of the battle.<br>
And unlike Klio, it's for free...<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Robert,<br>
There is no doubt some kind of battle/skirmish took place at Kalkriese but where do you get this "at the cost of thousands of Roman lives" bit? If you've walked the terrain, or even only looked at the relatively accurate reconstruction in the Nat. Geo article, you would know that the only way "thousands" of casualties could have been inflicted on the Romans is if their column was atacked all along its length, NOT by only a so-called "ambush" at the very head of the column. In the best case scenario, ignoring the fact that the Romans had scouts and a vanguard, the legionaries probably marched four abreast on a forest track, and simple arithmatic would show that less than a thousand Romans (probably closer to half that), could have even "fit" in the area where the artifacts where found. The archaeologists who developed this ridiculous scenario have absolutely no concept of ancient warfare, but despertately tried to concoct something that suggested the Varus battle, to assure future funding, and now, a multi-million Euro museum. They seem to imagine thousands of men in their long thin column (as it could only be), obligingly marching into a meat grinder to be killed four at a time as each file entered the "ambush site". This has to be about the stupidest thing I have ever heard.<br>
<br>
There was indeed some kind of settlement/structures at the center of the finds, where all the nails, post holes, pottery, furniture bits, etc. were found. Obviously, this is all being downplayed as it dismisses the nonsensical "ambush" theory.<br>
<br>
History indeed has a way of repeating itself, and in this case, you probably have seen the movie. Kalkriese, like Rourke's Drift was a strategic point to have an small installation, and behind the main thrusts in both campaigns. (1879 and 15-16 AD). In both cases, the lightly held stations were attacked by a larger number of the native population.<br>
<br>
In both cases, there was enough of a warning that the stations had time to be reinforced, though in the Roman case, this meant building an earthen rampart on more defensible higher ground.<br>
<br>
The Roman army was still more effective in offense rather than defense, and this is why there is a paucity of artifacts around the earthwork defenses. This was only to be used as a last resort, which apparently wasn't required.<br>
<br>
The scattered coins and bits of broken equipment suggest hard fighting, though it is most probable that the Romans ultimately triumphed and repulsed the barbarians, as they buried their pack mule, something the Germans certainly would not have. Also, if they were extremely hard pressed, they would have retreated back to the earthwork for their "last stand", much like the mealie bag redoubt at Rourke's Drift.<br>
<br>
I just had a wonderful, very original idea. Lets try to make a motion picture about what really must have happened at Kalkriese based on the actual archaeological evidence and not German wishful thinking and hero worship. We can form a website to write a screenplay about the courageous, outnumbered band of intrepid Roman defenders of classical civilization that garrissioned the Kalkriese station and held the vast mob of naked, club wielding barbarians at bay. I can see the title now, big pseudo-runic letters spelling out<br>
C H E R U S C I<br>
<br>
(and few years later we'll make CHERUSCI DAWN)<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Chariovalda]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>I just had a wonderful, very original idea. Lets try to make a motion picture about what really must have happened at Kalkriese based on the actual archaeological evidence and not German wishful thinking and hero worship. We can form a website to write a screenplay about the courageous, outnumbered band of intrepid Roman defenders of classical civilization that garrissioned the Kalkriese station and held the vast mob of naked, club wielding barbarians at bay. I can see the title now, big pseudo-runic letters spelling out CHERUSCI<hr><br>
<br>
Lemme guess: the historically accurate version according to Dan Peterson, will show Cherusci looking like the Flintstones, Arminius will be played by Ben Kingsley (since he is very good at playing creeps) sporting a monocle and mumbling "ve vill ausradieren deez Roman schweinhunde" and the Romans, grizzled but dignified veterans all, fighting heroically against overwhelming odds and treacherous, lying Epipalaeolithic Teutonic scum.<br>
<br>
Yeah, I'll buy the DVD as soon as it's in the sales bin for 5 euros... <p></p><i></i>

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>
<br>
Lemme guess: the historically accurate version according to Dan Peterson, will show Cherusci looking like the Flintstones, Arminius will be played by Ben Kingsley (since he is very good at playing creeps) sporting a monocle and mumbling "ve vill ausradieren deez Roman schweinhunde" and the Romans, grizzled but dignified veterans all, fighting heroically against overwhelming odds and treacherous, lying Epipalaeolithic Teutonic scum.<br>
<br>
Yeah, I'll buy the DVD as soon as it's in the sales bin for 5 euros... <hr><br>
<br>
Well, it'd be a neat movie. Perhaps you could contain your anti-Dan-ness... Yeah, sometimes Dan's posts are long and I may not agree w/ it all, but he has the same rights you do to post his ideas. If you can't say anything nice, just post the following: "Far be it for me to criticize you, but I don't agree...."<br>
<br>
I guess I will duck back into my bombproof...<br>
DMV <p>DECIMUS MERCATIUS VARIANUS<br>
<br>
LEGIO IX HISPANA<br>
NorCal Chapter<br>
<br>
Netscape Aim/AOL screen name: Sturmkatze<br>
<br>
Alteris renumera duplum de quoquo tibi numeraverunt.</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Jee, what is this, politicaly correct month on RAT? For reenacting roman soldiers some of you guys are ninnies. THAT'S RIGHT, NINNIES!!!! <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

No, Chariovaldi, they wouldn't look like the Flinstones, for the Flintstones wear clothing. "My" rank and file early 1st century Germans, (or should I say mob and horde?), would be largely naked, except for a small fur cape, just as the reliable Roman historian Tacitus describes, and the noted archaeologist of the North Germans, Dr. Glob confirms.<br>
<br>
But the "cave man type" clubs are right on. They seem to largely have been the "national weapon" of the largely metal-poor early Germans, so much so that the Germanic Numerii on Trajan's column seem to use them exclusively. They are my ancestors too, but this should not be grounds to make them something they are not, (as the author of a similar "project" seems intent on doing).<br>
<br>
Arminius, of course, would not be anywhere near Kalkriese, but far to the East, fleeing Germanicus' vengeful wrath. But he will be needed for at least a cameo appearance, and as you say, should be a "treacherous creep". But surely there are dozens more "stock" Nordic looking arch-villains that speak with a German accent in Hollywood far more appropriate than Ben Kingsley from which to choose. With the small exception of LOTR (and we all know why now), they seem to be the most popular and "P.C." villains these days.....<br>
Gee, I wonder why?<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Dan,<br>
Into the fray again, shall we? (btw, I gather you did not read the article in Der Spiegel yourself, did you? Judging from the difference of opinion between their and your view..).<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>There is no doubt some kind of battle/skirmish took place at Kalkriese but where do you get this "at the cost of thousands of Roman lives" bit?<hr> Where do I get it? Wrong question. You should ask; where do all experts get it, and even the critics who don't doubt it.<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you've walked the terrain, or even only looked at the relatively accurate reconstruction in the Nat. Geo article, you would know that the only way "thousands" of casualties could have been inflicted on the Romans is if their column was atacked all along its length, NOT by only a so-called "ambush" at the very head of the column.<hr> Sure I walked the terrain, and as I'm reading the sources correctly, the column was attacked on all sides. It is just that the column attempted to break through that 'choking point'. Who says the damage was done by an ambush at the head of the column? Surely not. The ambush was the attack of the whole column, the roughly walled 'choking point' was the problem because the Romans meant to fight their was out through that point (because the swamp to the north barred that route). Some numbers got throught that point, if we read the diverging trails correctly, but it meat the end of the Roman force as one effective army.<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>In the best case scenario, ignoring the fact that the Romans had scouts and a vanguard, the legionaries probably marched four abreast on a forest track, and simple arithmatic would show that less than a thousand Romans (probably closer to half that), could have even "fit" in the area where the artifacts where found. <hr> You forget this was a demoralised army, under attack for days and in awful weather. The slopes must have been muddy with rain-soaked earth and swollen streams. i doubt very much that a neat column, even if they started out that way, would have survived the first attack from the wooded flanks for very long. Bloody panic does that to a formation.<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>The archaeologists who developed this ridiculous scenario have absolutely no concept of ancient warfare, but despertately tried to concoct something that suggested the Varus battle, to assure future funding, and now, a multi-million Euro museum.<hr> And I suppose you were there. may I suggest you treat a profession which you so obviously have not studied for, with a little bit more respect? <br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>They seem to imagine thousands of men in their long thin column (as it could only be), obligingly marching into a meat grinder to be killed four at a time as each file entered the "ambush site". This has to be about the stupidest thing I have ever heard. <hr> Well, I can't comment on what you have heard, but with the terrain as it is/was, do you suggest they had any other option? Even with room for ten or twenty, at the 'choking point' there would have been not much room for another choice. And mind you, no-one said this is where all 20.000 died, this was just one of the main points of a battle which lasted for days over a lot of ground.<br>
<br>
Dan, you seem to be the only one who even sees one fortification, and even then, could this not have been simply the site of the army of germanicus in 15/16 AD? We know they were at the battle-site, we know the buried the remains, so they must have stayed there for some time. The mule may as well belong to the second army, as may the post-holes and your 'fortification'. In no way does it cancel out the likelyhood of Kalkriese being (part of) the Varus battle site.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Quote:</em></strong><hr>No, Chariovaldi, they wouldn't look like the Flinstones, for the Flintstones wear clothing.<hr><br>
<img src="http://www.fiftiesweb.com/tv/flintstones-fw.gif" style="border:0;"/> <img src="http://www.tatrafilm.sk/archiv/2000/images/flintstones.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
Flintstones................... Modern re-enactors<br>
<br>
Well, if you call THAT clothing.. Seems like "a small fur cape" to me, anyway. <br>
The real difference between the Flintstones and the ancient Germans was of course that the Flintstones had cars.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 3/23/04 7:53 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

and dinosaurs. <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>

[Chariovalda]

Marching song of Varus' legions (translated into a barbarous tongue):<br>
<br>
Was treiben wir Römer in Germania?<br>
Hört, hört!<br>
Die Barbarei wird von uns allda zerstört.<br>
Und wenn so ein Wilder von uns nichts will,<br>
Den machen wir flugs auf ewig still.<br>
Tschik-tschak*, tschik-tschak, hurra!<br>
O glückliches Germania!<br>
Wir bring’n die Germanen Romanitas.<br>
Wie brav!<br>
Und wer's nicht haben will, den bringen wir um.<br>
Tschik-tschak!<br>
O selig die "Wilden", die also man lehrt<br>
Die "Amicitia" mit Feuer und Schwert.<br>
Tschik-tschak, tschik-tschak, hurra!<br>
O glückliches Germania!<br>
Wir haben gar "schneidige Rhetoriker'",<br>
Juchhei!<br>
Den Mulsum, den Fischsauce und das Gladius<br>
Die drei.<br>
So tragen "Kultur" wir nach Germania.<br>
Vorwärts! Wirft Pila ! Für SPQR und Gloria!<br>
Tschik-tschak, tschik-tschak, hurra!<br>
O glückliches Germania!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
*tschik-tschak: imagine the sound of a gladius entering, then exiting a smelly hairy barbarians' belly.<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Chariovalda]

And for those of you conversant in another barbarous tongue, a translation:<br>
<br>
What are we Romans doing in Germania?<br>
Hear, hear!<br>
We’re destroying Barbarity over there.<br>
And when such a Savage doesn’t want to hear,<br>
That one we’ll quickly silence forever.<br>
Tshik-tshak, tshik-tshak, hurra!<br>
O happy Germania!<br>
We’re bringing the Germans Romanitas.<br>
How noble!<br>
And who doesn’t want it, we’ll terminate him.<br>
Tshik-tshak!<br>
O blessed are the “Savagesâ€ÂÂ

[Uwe Bahr]

Dan,<br>
<br>
the map I gave You in Herne can be found - with other maps - on the following link, it has the number 71:<br>
<br>
[url=http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/mgi/maps/blaeu/germania.htm" target="top]www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/mgi/maps/blaeu/germania.htm[/url]<br>
<br>
The map 'Germania veteris typus' was painted by the dutch painter Abraham Ortelius in 1587. It is said that he used different ancient, medieval and modern (modern in 1587!) sources. I found first reference to this map in Rolf Bökemeier’s “Varus starb im Teutoburger Wald – eine Antwort auf Kalkriese (Varus died in the Teutoburg forrest – an answer to Kalkriese)â€ÂÂ

[Robert Vermaat]

A golden-oldy from Germany:<br>
text by Viktor von Scheffel (184, melody as a [url=http://std-stade.de/mid/alsdie.mid" target="top]Midifile[/url]<br>
<br>
Als die Römer frech geworden,<br>
Sim serim sim sim sim sim,<br>
Zogen sie nach Deutschlands Norden,<br>
Sim serim sim sim sim sim,<br>
Vorne mit Trompetenschall,<br>
Te rä tä tä tä te rä,<br>
Ritt der Generalfeldmarschall,<br>
Te rä tä tä tä te rä,<br>
Herr Quintilius Varus,<br>
Wau, wau, wau, wau, wau,<br>
Herr Quintilius Varus,<br>
|: Schnäde räng täng <br>
Schnäde räng täng, de räng täng täng<br>
<br>
In dem Teutoburger Walde,<br>
Huh! Wie piff der Wind so kalte,<br>
Raben folgen durch die Luft,<br>
Und es war ein Moderduft,<br>
Wie von Blut und Leichen,<br>
<br>
<br>
Plötzlich aus des Waldes Duster<br>
Brachen kampfhaft die Cherusker,<br>
Mit Gott für Fürst und Vaterland<br>
Stürtzen sie sich wutentbrannt<br>
Auf die Legionen.<br>
<br>
<br>
Weh, das ward ein großer Morden,<br>
Sie schlugen die Kohorten,<br>
Nur die römische Reiterei<br>
Rettete sich noch ins Frei,<br>
Denn sie war zu Pferde.<br>
<br>
O Quintili, armer Feldherr,<br>
Dachtest du, daß so die Welt wär'?<br>
Er geriet in einen Sumpf,<br>
Verlor zwei Stiefel und einen Strumpf<br>
Und blieb elend stecken.<br>
<br>
Da sprach er voll Ärgernussen<br>
Zum Centurio Titiussen:<br>
"Kam'rad, zeuch dein Schwert hervor<br>
Und von hinten mich durchbor,<br>
Da doch alles futsch ist."<br>
<br>
In dem armen römischen Heere<br>
Diente auch als volontäre<br>
Scävola, ein Rechtskandidat,<br>
Den man schnöd gefangen hat,<br>
Wie die andern all.<br>
<br>
Diesem ist es schlimm ergangen,<br>
Eh daß man ihn aufgehangen,<br>
Stach man ihm durch Zung und Herz,<br>
Nagelte ihn hinterwärts<br>
Auf sein corpus iuris.<br>
<br>
Als die Waldschlacht war zu Ende,<br>
Rieb Fürst Hermann sich die Hände,<br>
Und um seinen Sieg zu weih'n,<br>
Lud er die Cherusker ein<br>
Zu 'nem großen Frühstück.<br>
<br>
Hu, da gabs westfälischen Schinken,<br>
Bier, soviel man wollte trinken;<br>
Auch im Zechen blieb er Held,<br>
Doch auch seine Frau Thusneld<br>
Trank walkürenmäßig.<br>
<br>
Nur in Rom war man nicht heiter,<br>
Sondern kaufte Trauerkleider;<br>
G'rade als beim Mittagsmahl<br>
Augustus saß im Kaisersaal,<br>
Kam die Trauerbotschaft.<br>
<br>
Erst blieb ihm vor jähem Schrecken<br>
Ein Stück Pfau im Halse stecken,<br>
Dann geriet er außer sich<br>
Und schrie: "Varus, Fluch auf dich,<br>
Redde legiones!"<br>
<br>
Sein deutscher Sklave, Schmidt geheißen,<br>
Dacht: Ihn soll das Mäusle beißen,<br>
Wenn er sie je wieder kriegt,<br>
Denn wer einmal tot daliegt,<br>
Wird nicht mehr lebendig.<br>
<br>
Und zu Ehren der Geschichten<br>
Tat ein Denkmal man errichten,<br>
Deutschlands Kraft und Einigkeit<br>
Kündet es jetzt weit und breit:<br>
"Mögen sie nur kommen!"<br>
-------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 3/23/04 2:48 pm<br></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Uwe,<br>
<br>
You probably know that there have been literally hundreds of theories where the varus battle took place. Every site can be defended as the right site in theory, but as far as I know not one site has yielded a great number of finds as Kalkriese has. Which is why I say; show me another battle site and we'll discuss things. No finds, no discussion, just going back on all those theories of the 16th to 20th centuries.<br>
<br>
As for the map, those areas which I know anything about are very wrong. As for 'Phabiranum' and similar names, it was very 'cool' for cities during the Middle Ages and after to 'invent' Latin-sounding names, even if the settlements dated from centuries after the Romans. I could not possibly say if Bremen was indeed called that, but it sounds like a later invention.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>