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Caius Fabius · 01-25-2005, 03:04 AM

I am looking for scale drawings of the Kalkreise "segmentata" parts. Where should I start my search? I took a photo of the display at the museum, however it was a substandard photo. 
Thank you for all help! 
 
 
 
 
 
yes I ran a search, but didn't find a related thread..... "Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU,

01-26-2005, 06:40 PM

Salve Caius. 
 
Have you looked at the LEG VIII AVG site? www.roman.org.uk 
 
They have done a repro, and it is rather good. 
 
Vale Mummius

FlaviusCrispus · 01-26-2005, 10:49 PM

Avete, Fabius et al! 
 
Actually, there is rather more known about the Kalkriese cuirass than it might appear. In addition to the one breast plate (not a collar segment) found at kalkriese, there are a number of other fragments and fittings from other sites that have the distinctive scalloped hinges which are "markers" for this type. Here is Matt Amt's page on the Kalkriese: 
 
www.larp.com/legioxx/kalklor.html 
 
And Mike Bishop's reconstruction of same: 
 
www.mcbishop.co.uk/lorica...kriese.jpg 
 
There is enough to indicate that the cuirass is almost certainly a form of full lorica segmentata, and not some sort of plate-mail hybrid. 
 
Such hybrids did exist, and a section of one can be seen here: 
 
www.legionsix.org/DSC00058.JPG 
 
Here: 
 
www.legionsix.org/DSC00059.JPG 
 
and here: 
 
www.legionsix.org/DSC00061.JPG 
 
The piece probably dates to the late Republic / early Empire (based on the epigraphy of the insccribed name, which seems to be "Quintus M(arcus?) Aemilius, freedman of Quintus." This fascinating piece has been acquired by a German collector and publication is pending. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Leg VI VPF 
CA, USA 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/27/05 1:16 am

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 01-26-2005, 11:04 PM

Ave frater Crispus! 
I find the theory of the chain-mail/plate armour very fascinating indeed, and it certainly seems that those photos do indeed represent such a piece. I wonder to what extent this type of armour was worn, and by what types of troops? I have a book called "Imperial Rome at War" by Martin Windrow and Angus McBride which has an excellent illustration of an auxillary cavalryman wearing such armour. I was always very fascinated and attracted to the painting, but I wasn't sure what, if anything, that it was based on in reality. I can see from your photos now that it is indeed based on historical reality, and I would like to know more, if there is more to be known. Can you help point me in the proper direction to find some information on this kind of armour? Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated. 
Now, back to the Kalkreise segmentata. Hasn't it been determined to be the earliest known example of segmentata found? Please pardon my lack of knowledge, as I am primarily a late Roman reenactor, but I study, and would eventually like to reenact ALL periods of the Roman army. Thanks! Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica

FlaviusCrispus · 01-27-2005, 12:49 AM

Ave, frater Metellus! 
 
Most of the reconstructions which show lorica segmentata-style shoulder plates mated with a mail torso are based on the Arlon "horseman" relief, which can be found here: 
 
www.ial.be/pageeverydaylife.htm 
 
It's possible we are looking at a real hybrid type here, but Mike Bishop leans more toward the view that the artist was trying to depict regular old shoulder doubling, with leather edging, on mail shirts. 
 
The hybrid piece shown on the Leg VI website was very different from the usual such reconstruction, in that the two "segments" per side run parallel, not perpendicular, to the shoulder and are hinged along the length; the mail is attached to each segment via a series of holes along the outer edges. I originally thought this was late Roman, mid-third century AD or later, as it seemed to share some features with the Newstead-style lorica, but the collector who purchased it, a noted expert in Roman militaria, informs me the style of inscription and letter forms definitely fall into the late Republic or very early Imperial period. 
 
The Kalkriese find seems to represent the earliest ROMAN form of segmented armor we can yet identify; however, there are some scraps of plate armor from Pergamum (published in Bishop's "Lorica Segmentata, Vol. 1") which might indicate a Hellenistic prototype, from the second century BC. Since Pergamum was a Roman possession after 133 BC, it's also possible that this piece represents a much earlier form of Roman lorica seg. Also, if our shoulder armor fragments (which are "segmented," albeit diffrerently from the traditional lorica seg) can be better dated (which must rely on epigraphy and metalworking parallels alone, since the find context is unfortunately unknown), they could definitely be pre-Kalkriese as well. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI VPF 
CA, USA Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/7/05 9:30 pm

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 01-27-2005, 02:56 AM

Thanks for the information, frater Crispus, it was very helpful. Do you know of any reconstructed examples (photographs) of such a mail/plate hybrid? I'd like to see one that someone has made, if anyone has done it. 
I bet that although it would lack the protective values of a full plate segmentata, the hybrid would be very comfortable to wear, and easy to make. It seems it might be particularly well suited to a cavalryman, as shown in the sculpture, and the painting I refer to. Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica

Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 01-27-2005, 02:58 AM

Here is a detail of the painting showing the auxillary cavalryman with the hybrid lorica. It is from a painting done by Angus McBride. 
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Hybrid.jpg" style="border:0;"/> Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica

Tarbicus · 01-27-2005, 03:30 AM

Hasn't a cavalry re-enactment group tested a segmentata-shoulders with chainmail-body piece? I seem to remember seeing photos. Full segmentata on cavalry were completely out of the question, but just the shoulders were good? May have been in the Legions in Colour photo book. I'm pretty sure it was. 
 
Jim/Tarbicus

FlaviusCrispus · 01-27-2005, 06:06 AM

Caius Fabius-- 
 
In addition to the Kalkriese breastplate (which is almost exactly the same size and shape as many of the Corbridge types, only with a different strap-to-plate connection and the whole thing is edged with cupric alloy piping), there are at least 11 other fittings, hinges, buckles and whatnot, from the same context, plus other sub-lobate hinges from Strasbourg and Colchester, an upper shoulder guard grom Vindonissa with the same hinge type, and a girth hoop fragment from Vindonissa which seems to belong to the same type cuirass (the hole pattern leads Bishop to suggest straps and buckles, instead of loops and ties, as a girth hoop closure system). As I said, there is clearly enough to suggest this is a full lorica seg, since we have at least fragments of all the major components-- the chest-back-collar assembly, shoulder guards, and (probably) girth hoops. Also as I said, plate-mail hybrids clearly did exist, but the type of cuirass represented by the Kalkriese breastplate and associated fragments is likely not one of these. All this is covered in Bishops "Lorica Segmentata, Vol. I, pp. 23-29. I don't think Matt has updated his Kalkriese page since the book came out. 
 
Metellus and Jim-Tarbicus-- 
 
Michael Simkins built a hybrid mail shirt-segmented shoulder guard cuirass based on the Arlon relief; this is illustrated on p. 74 of "Lorica Segmentata, Vol. I," and in Simpkins' book "Warriors of Rome." I think this was worn by one of Dr. Marcus Junkleman's cavalry group in a shot seen in Dan Peterson's "Roman Legions in Full Color Photographs." 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Legio VI VPF 
CA, USA

FlaviusCrispus · 01-28-2005, 05:28 AM

Caius Fabius-- 
 
You stated at the start of this topic that you were looking for scale drawings of the Kalkriese breastplate and fragments. If you have both volumes of "Lorica Segmentata," you have just these drawings. Why ask for them here? 
 
I, for one, find it puzzling that you are asking for drawings of archaeological finds, then dismiss the importance of such finds by stating that, since they were not all found together, it's not certain they belong to the same (or same type) armor and might be anything at all. 
 
No one is suggesting that all of the Kalkriese fragments are from the same cuirass as the famous breastplate; however, there are good reasons for suspecting they come from the same general TYPE of cuirass, since they share a certain typology, namely, the scalloped hinge-end which can clearly be seen on the breastplate (and on the Vindonissa shoulder plate); furthermore, most or all of these pieces have analogues on the Corbridge type loricas, which were very well understood thanks to the Corbridge hoard. 
 
You seem determined to reconstruct the Kalkriese lorica as something other than a "normal" lorica segmenta. Go right ahead! We look forward to seing your proposed reconstruction, and how it fits with the evidence. 
 
I especially look forward to seeing how you mate what appears to be a breastplate to a lorica segmentata (quite similar in most respects to Corbridge breastplates, of which we know precisely how they fit into an armor schema) with some other form of armor, be it mail, scale, or something else. Please note than on the armor fragment photos I posted, you can see exactly how the mail attaches to the plate, via holes around the outside edges. The embossed breast plates that closed 2nd-century and later mail shirts have similar holes around the outside. There are no such holes anywhere on the Kalkriese breastplate, nor were there any mail fragments attached to it our found next to it. Furthermore, the Vindonissa shoulder plate has the same-type scalloped hinge as the Kalkriese breastplate, as do several of the other fittings. 
 
Of course, you may be right and they may not fit together at all. However, if I am a paleo-ornitholiogist, and I come across some skelatal remains that include a duck-like bill, plus other bone fragments which seem quite similar to those of existing ducks, I can safely surmise that the remains might belong to some kind of duck. Of course I could be wrong and they could belong to some kind of mutant pigmy duck-billed rhinocerous, but most would regard the odds of that as being quite slim. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/28/05 6:41 am

Daniel S Peterson · 01-28-2005, 06:31 AM

Because of the Arlon stele, for part of the Junkelmann cavalry experiments I wore a composite armor of mail shirt with segmented shoulders. It can be seen in some of the related books. I believe the one that Simkins made was to sell to Junkelmann, but he ran out of funds. In those days there were no inexpensive Indian alternatives. 
 
The Kallreise fragments are similar enough to corbridge to suggest it probably had similar belly bands, but one cannot completely rule out something like the Arlon representation, which is roughly contemporary as I recall. 
 
In the mass of body armor from the magazine at Carnuntum, one sees scale and segmentatae intermingled together. Possibly some of these may have been composite armors as well. There is also that stele shoiwng a figure with segmented manica and belly bands surmounted by a scale collar/shoulder piece, and I believe the Carlisle manica is made like this as well. Just because an all mail, all scale, or all segmented cuirass may be more aesthetic to our modern eye, there is a fair amount of evidence for these composite armors. 
 
Dan

FlaviusCrispus · 01-28-2005, 03:40 PM

Ave Caius Fabius! 
 
Not to beat an anology to death, but if I found a squishy, fleshy bill with a superficial resemblence to a duck's, in proximity to some weird skeletal remains of some kind of primitive mammal, I might say, "hmmm--something strange going on here," and withhold any judgement as to whether the bill belonged to a bird or no. But if it looks like a duck, and has bones like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then... 
 
As I have said, repeatedly, I am not denying that composite armors exist-- they certainly did exist, as I have seen and handled proof of this. But if you are going to posit that the Kalkriese breastplate belongs to an Arlon-style composite mail-plate cuirass (and by the way, the Arlon relief seems to show seg-style shoulderplates, but NO BREASTPLATES), you have to show us how the male is mated to the plate, plausibly, using only the evidence from the plate itself (i.e. not "well, if it had a line of holes along here..."). It would also be helpful if you would show exactly what it is about the Kalkriese breastplate that makes you think it should be mated to mail, instead of girth hoops. Provide a reason to suppose it is something other than a piece of a "normal" lorica seg, and I'll happily tip my helmet to you! 
 
The American eagle may not be the Roman one, but they are certainly cousins. And, I hope, friends! 
 
Dan-- 
 
So that was YOU in the Arlon cuirass? Cool. Hard to tell who was who in the photo. 
 
How 'bout attempting some kind of reconstruction of the "Q. Aemilio Q. L." shoulder pieces? There we have a definite plate-mail composite, in a fairly secure time frame. I've got much better photos and measurements of it, including several close-ups. And it will shortly be residing in the collection of a very close European friend of yours (who even has a type of helmet named after him, which you, I believe, provided to Deepeeka for their repro!). 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=flaviuscrispus@romanarmytalk>FlaviusCrispus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/legiovi/vwp?.dir=/Flavius+photo&.src=gr&.dnm=flavhead2.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/28/05 7:26 pm

mcbishop · 01-30-2005, 01:58 PM

There are no scale drawings published as yet of the larger pieces of lorica seg from Kalkriese itself, only the well-known photos. Some drawings of hinged fittings have been published in various places. 
 
There is now a matching midcollar plate, from a different context to the breastplate, and published here: 
 
Patscher, S. and Moosbauer, G. 2003: '"Nichts ist, das ewig sei, kein Erz, kein Marmorstein" (Andreas Gryphius). Bericht ÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¼ber die Restaurierung des Objekts 13/8/90, Schnitt 35, Fundnummer 28453 und seine Funktion', Varus-kurier 9, 4-5 
 
Incidentally, my solution for the girth hoop fastenings was only a guess based on nothing other than the absence of tie loops in the archaeological record before the Corbridge type comes along, and the deduction that the Corbridge tie loops must have been better than whatever went before (tying the plates together through simple holes? or perhaps buckling them, as shown on the pedestal reliefs on Trajan's Column?). I have enough patience to wait until archaeology eventually provides us with the real solution (after all, it took 25 years after Robinson had identified the Newstead type of cuirass before we had the Stillfried find to show how the girth hoops for that type were fastened... only to realise we had all the pieces already, but had not recognised how they worked!). 
 
Lorica segmentata studies have a long tradition of speculation, experimentation, and egg on the face of researchers; long may it continue ;-) 
 
Mike Bishop

FlaviusCrispus · 01-30-2005, 04:11 PM

Good to have you weigh in, Mike! 
 
Now, can you answer this question: Is there any indication at all that any of the Kalkriese (and related) fragments were mated to anything other than girth hoops, i.e. that the girth section may have been mail or scale instead? 
 
Oh, by the way, on page 24 of your "LC Vol. I," there is a drawing of the Kalkriese breastplate with a scale next to it-- does this not constitute a "scale drawing"? Or are there pieces as large or larger still to be published? 
 
T. Flavius Crispus

01-31-2005, 12:37 AM

This is still a relatively free world & you are of course welcome to your own opinions/theories. 
However, personally I do not think that the Kalkriese breastplate could have attached to mail any more than it may have attched to a pink net tutu. 
The rivet points and strapping arrangements are different from, but significantly similar to the Corbridge to suggest that it belongs to a form of segmentata. 
The presence of the vertical strapping suggests that it served to attach to girdle plates. Had they been used to attach to mail, the corresponding matching buckles would have had to be placed approx 2" down from the top edge. The mail above this point would then sag, producing an area between the base edge of the plate and the mail with no protection - most unhealthy! 
There is sufficient reasoning to hypothesise on possible use of other plate finds from the same site, and indeed of plates from other early contexts which differ from later Corbridge examples. Hopefully as more finds may come to light, as was the case with the early Robinson reconstructions, more accurate representations may become possible. All experimental archaeology is just that after all - experimental - to test a hypothesis which will hopefully get that bit closer to the truth each time. 
Also, as there appears to be some confusion - the reconstructed Kalkriese mentioned earlier, was produced as part of academic research at University of Liverpool, presented as a paper at the 2004 Theoretical Roman Archeology Conference in Durham. Incidentally, the webaddress was actually given on these pages by Mike Bishop long before the link ever appeared on the Leg VIII webpage. 
 
Claudia Crisis

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