08-31-2007, 01:12 AM
Ok. Let's see.
The Lliria vases date to a very brief period, at the end of Hannibal's War or the beginning of the 2nd C BC. So they have to be understood in the context of Punic and Roman armies marching North and South during all these decades,; armies full of allied contingents including Iberians and Celtiberians.
Garcia y Bellido, many years ago, first put forward the idea that the warriors in a particular vase -(the specific lebes mentioned by Ebusitanus and Vieira), painted with homogeneous weapons and a peculiar painting pattern on the torso, could in fact be depictions of Romans, although he wrongly believed the vase -and the representation- to be of Augustean date.
In fact, Bellido could be right, in a way. I believe these warriors could perhaps depict 'regular' Iberian troops in Carthaginian or Roman service. We know that Hannibal armed his Italian army with captured Roman weapons, and there is no reason to suppose that Hasdrubal and Mago could have acted differently.
On the other hand, do not be mislead by the peculiar pattern, held by some to represent scale armour or mail. First, there is NOT a SINGLE element of chain mail or scale, in bronze or iron, in over 1000 thousand Iberian and Celtiberian burials containing weapons as grave goods, that I have studied. Not a single element of that type in over 6.200 weapons I have catalogued. Some objects once believed to be mail are in fact feminine objects similar to others in southern Italy, chains, but not mail.
Also, we have to understand the principles behind artistic representation in ancient art. To cut it short, even in the comparatively very detailed Attic Black and Red Figure pottery, the same filling pattern was used by the best painters (such as Euphronius) to represent scale armour in hoplites, the Aegis of Athena (goat skin, but impenetrable) and also the feathered wings of daimones. So, a 'scale' pattern does not necessarily mean 'scale armour' even in Greek Art.
So, we do not know as well as we do in Greece the codes of Iberian painters, but there is no solid reason to identify that same pattern with scale, specially if that type armour is completely unknown from other iconographic, literary and archaeological sources. Same happens with mail, except for some isolated literary references.
To sum up, there is no proof that the Lliria lebes shows scale or mail. On the contrary, there are many reasons to believe it does not. But if it did, it probably depicts veteran Iberians in Carthaginian or Roman service, being a small minority. And, surely, not wearing scale... only mail at most, and I don't really believe it. IF the figures are those of Iberian warriors, it should be much more probable that this pattern represents some sort of quilted armour of felt, leather or any other organic material. But, If we insist in considering it metallic armour (bronze scale, for example) then the warriors are more probably Carthqaginians , Romans or a very scpecial group of Iberians.
The Lliria vases date to a very brief period, at the end of Hannibal's War or the beginning of the 2nd C BC. So they have to be understood in the context of Punic and Roman armies marching North and South during all these decades,; armies full of allied contingents including Iberians and Celtiberians.
Garcia y Bellido, many years ago, first put forward the idea that the warriors in a particular vase -(the specific lebes mentioned by Ebusitanus and Vieira), painted with homogeneous weapons and a peculiar painting pattern on the torso, could in fact be depictions of Romans, although he wrongly believed the vase -and the representation- to be of Augustean date.
In fact, Bellido could be right, in a way. I believe these warriors could perhaps depict 'regular' Iberian troops in Carthaginian or Roman service. We know that Hannibal armed his Italian army with captured Roman weapons, and there is no reason to suppose that Hasdrubal and Mago could have acted differently.
On the other hand, do not be mislead by the peculiar pattern, held by some to represent scale armour or mail. First, there is NOT a SINGLE element of chain mail or scale, in bronze or iron, in over 1000 thousand Iberian and Celtiberian burials containing weapons as grave goods, that I have studied. Not a single element of that type in over 6.200 weapons I have catalogued. Some objects once believed to be mail are in fact feminine objects similar to others in southern Italy, chains, but not mail.
Also, we have to understand the principles behind artistic representation in ancient art. To cut it short, even in the comparatively very detailed Attic Black and Red Figure pottery, the same filling pattern was used by the best painters (such as Euphronius) to represent scale armour in hoplites, the Aegis of Athena (goat skin, but impenetrable) and also the feathered wings of daimones. So, a 'scale' pattern does not necessarily mean 'scale armour' even in Greek Art.
So, we do not know as well as we do in Greece the codes of Iberian painters, but there is no solid reason to identify that same pattern with scale, specially if that type armour is completely unknown from other iconographic, literary and archaeological sources. Same happens with mail, except for some isolated literary references.
To sum up, there is no proof that the Lliria lebes shows scale or mail. On the contrary, there are many reasons to believe it does not. But if it did, it probably depicts veteran Iberians in Carthaginian or Roman service, being a small minority. And, surely, not wearing scale... only mail at most, and I don't really believe it. IF the figures are those of Iberian warriors, it should be much more probable that this pattern represents some sort of quilted armour of felt, leather or any other organic material. But, If we insist in considering it metallic armour (bronze scale, for example) then the warriors are more probably Carthqaginians , Romans or a very scpecial group of Iberians.
