07-05-2010, 01:35 AM
Hello and Wow everyone. Thank you for having an interest and at least a respect for the Persians. Thank you, it really means a lot. Also, what is great is that even though history has a biased account, that none of my actual Greek friends do. It is so funny to me. Anyway, wonderful Persian Impressions. Thank you. You guys look great. Im sooooo tired of seeing black eyed turbaned beasts that somehow are trained in enough ballet just to fly through the air to land on Greek Spears. hahaha
As far as history being biased, well we all know that. But the winner writes history. But what is funny to me is the missing common sense. I have a little fun drill for everyone out there to see if you can get a realistic and accurate account for yourselves.
First, read the Spartan Army, The Spartan Way of War and The Life of Lycurgus. You will get a very very detailed account of real hoplite warfare. Now, take into consideration the pass at Thermopylae. About 2 chariots wide. Two Persian Chariots which are much much larger than Greek or Roman Chariots. So, lets give it an advantage, with Scythes. Lets say 4 foot blades. That is 8 feet just in blade width. Then the chariot is said to have been able to have 3-4 people in it not including a driver. Driver armored to the point where he was unkillable unless he was pulled off and beaten to death. So lets have the driver with a man on either side and one behind. Javalineers and Archers. Lets say 1 foot space between the guys and the guys are huge (just giving an advantage to the Greeks) the guys are 3 feet wide. Ok so now we have guys totaling 9 feet with another three feet added for spacing, makes it 12 feet, plus 8 feet in blades. Makes it 20 feet wide. So two of them makes it 40 feet wide.
So we have a 40 foot wide path, with roughly 7000 Greeks shoved in it, heavily armored. Tops of their feet armored, thighs armored, shins armored, forearms armored, mid arms armored and shoulders armored, and ofcourse head armored and a massive hoplon, shield to shield. If you had 7000 grandmothers with knives in that pass, trained modern military could not get past them. Because once you begin the killing at some point the bodies pile up so high that you cant even see the next round of men to kill. This is now completely explained in Life of Lycurgus and Spartan Army and other very well known Greek Accounts. That the Hoplites had to crawl over piles of dead to fight, which at some point stopped their advance. Now having said that, take the following into consideration.
The Persian side: At what point do you as a Greek Hoplite, in Particular a Spartan who relies on his unit strength say, I can not break Spartan Rank and meet Persians in Open Battle. We know that they were considered fierce equals through other accounts of their battles. But more importantly, they are commanded by Thomesticles at all costs to buy time, to hold the pass so that Athens can be evacuated. So you cant risk the weakening of the Pass. So, at what point, are the bodies so piled up that you cant see the other Persians to kill. So the absurd numbers of dead are soooo exaggerated that it is ridiculous. Remember, the Greeks gave us some of the best myths and legends. I love Greek Mythology and Legend. So take into consideration, that if the Greeks killed a few hundred or a few thousand that how easily that can be inflated to absurd numbers.
So now, do your own test, take the depth measurement of a body and ask yourself, how many bodies would pile up and how wide in a exaggerated (by me) 40 foot wide path, before you cant even see your next enemy to kill. How far do you reach out or climb up before you are at risk as a hoplite. Furthermore, especially if by all accounts, Spartans are no better than Thespians, Athenians or Thebans. We hold them to be super humans but they were not. Remember, they lost to the Thebans, to the Athenians and also to Persians many many times. Now that is not to discredit them as fierce warriors, quite the opposite. But we do need to keep it realist that they were human beings, not gods.
So having said that, do the math, see how many bodies will pile up before it is such an absurd pile that you cant even comprehend who would be able to engage. Remember, they held the pass, that is what they were entrusted to do. 7000 Greeks. 7000 Noble Greeks who fought hard. But at somepoint, I think the fighting just stopped and was unable to proceed.
Furthermore, amongst a lot of people now in the Academic world there is a debate that the signal for the Immortals to retreat was in time with the information of Ephialtes. What I did hear in a Classics Seminar and unfortunately keep looking for the source and cant find it again, was that the Immortals were signaled 3-5 times to retreat and they would not, they were engaged in the most ferocious fighting with the Spartans, neither gaining ground and both suffering equal losses. This makes an accurate logical account of realistic warfare.
Finally, the initial attack was of conscripts backed by Persian levies. The second wave was the Immortals. We have no account of any losses by the Immortals. What is stated is that they faired no better in gaining ground.
One of the things that is now widely accepted is that Herodotus numbers were inaccurate. Even in the size of the Army. What he said is mass numbers. What he did not account for was who made these numbers up. Take this into account, the Pesians had two grooms per horseman. So if you brought 20,000 horsemen, that number is now up to 60,000 men. The Immortals brought their wives and sons, who were not allowed to engage in combat, and a groom. so lets say 1 wife, 1 son and 1 groom. So that number is now up to 40,000. Remember that they brought a large number of conscripts, ok, so large in these means what, lets say 50,000. Probably another 20,000 Persian Conscripts. Also, remember they had a massive Navy that took up quite a bit of soldiers as well. Further more, they brought beds, tents, chairs, chaplet weavers, perfume makers, pastry makers and cooks. Again, try and even figure that number out. But we know that it took them a minimum of 5 years to prepare the food dumps and troops and more importantly the supply personal for this.
Hans Delbruk has a wonderful way to explain this. He says clearly, the most organized marching discipline in history is that of the German Army in WWII. If the Persians marched in such tight order, taking into consideration Herodotus numbers, the first Persians of Herodotus' account would be arriving in Athens, when there were still troops leaving Persepolis.
I highly recommend the books, Warfare in Antiquity by Hans Delbruk, for Roman and Greek and Persian accounts of Military numbers and Tactics.
Finally, also remember, there was a Greek attempt to erase the history of a very famous figure, Thomesticles by the Athenians. Why? After the Persian Wars, after his brilliance led them to victory, they exiled him. He left Greece and lived in the Persian Empire and worked for Xerxes. This was a massive betrayal in the eyes of the Athenians, and they have done all they could to put the focus of their victories in particular a focus on Thermopylae and Lionades. This discredits Thomesticles, Makes the Persians seem very weak and beatable and enforces Athens ability to Lead the Region, not one man in Thomesticles. This was all put to rest with the coming of Phillip of Macedon.
So for me, it is not so much that the Greeks or Persians won or lost that war. There was no winner or loser. It swayed back and forth. But how we have disrespected even the Greeks by heroworship and not crediting them in the Military Genius that they employed to save them from a much larger and superior force that they confronted. So in crediting properly the battles and wars of that time, you appropriately credit the proper warriors and military genius of that time.
There is my brief account of the bias. Sorry for the long write, but I get tired of wikipedia and 300 being the source of historical data for people that is fueled by the Ultimate Fighter and RedBull. hahaha
Ardeshir Radpour
As far as history being biased, well we all know that. But the winner writes history. But what is funny to me is the missing common sense. I have a little fun drill for everyone out there to see if you can get a realistic and accurate account for yourselves.
First, read the Spartan Army, The Spartan Way of War and The Life of Lycurgus. You will get a very very detailed account of real hoplite warfare. Now, take into consideration the pass at Thermopylae. About 2 chariots wide. Two Persian Chariots which are much much larger than Greek or Roman Chariots. So, lets give it an advantage, with Scythes. Lets say 4 foot blades. That is 8 feet just in blade width. Then the chariot is said to have been able to have 3-4 people in it not including a driver. Driver armored to the point where he was unkillable unless he was pulled off and beaten to death. So lets have the driver with a man on either side and one behind. Javalineers and Archers. Lets say 1 foot space between the guys and the guys are huge (just giving an advantage to the Greeks) the guys are 3 feet wide. Ok so now we have guys totaling 9 feet with another three feet added for spacing, makes it 12 feet, plus 8 feet in blades. Makes it 20 feet wide. So two of them makes it 40 feet wide.
So we have a 40 foot wide path, with roughly 7000 Greeks shoved in it, heavily armored. Tops of their feet armored, thighs armored, shins armored, forearms armored, mid arms armored and shoulders armored, and ofcourse head armored and a massive hoplon, shield to shield. If you had 7000 grandmothers with knives in that pass, trained modern military could not get past them. Because once you begin the killing at some point the bodies pile up so high that you cant even see the next round of men to kill. This is now completely explained in Life of Lycurgus and Spartan Army and other very well known Greek Accounts. That the Hoplites had to crawl over piles of dead to fight, which at some point stopped their advance. Now having said that, take the following into consideration.
The Persian side: At what point do you as a Greek Hoplite, in Particular a Spartan who relies on his unit strength say, I can not break Spartan Rank and meet Persians in Open Battle. We know that they were considered fierce equals through other accounts of their battles. But more importantly, they are commanded by Thomesticles at all costs to buy time, to hold the pass so that Athens can be evacuated. So you cant risk the weakening of the Pass. So, at what point, are the bodies so piled up that you cant see the other Persians to kill. So the absurd numbers of dead are soooo exaggerated that it is ridiculous. Remember, the Greeks gave us some of the best myths and legends. I love Greek Mythology and Legend. So take into consideration, that if the Greeks killed a few hundred or a few thousand that how easily that can be inflated to absurd numbers.
So now, do your own test, take the depth measurement of a body and ask yourself, how many bodies would pile up and how wide in a exaggerated (by me) 40 foot wide path, before you cant even see your next enemy to kill. How far do you reach out or climb up before you are at risk as a hoplite. Furthermore, especially if by all accounts, Spartans are no better than Thespians, Athenians or Thebans. We hold them to be super humans but they were not. Remember, they lost to the Thebans, to the Athenians and also to Persians many many times. Now that is not to discredit them as fierce warriors, quite the opposite. But we do need to keep it realist that they were human beings, not gods.
So having said that, do the math, see how many bodies will pile up before it is such an absurd pile that you cant even comprehend who would be able to engage. Remember, they held the pass, that is what they were entrusted to do. 7000 Greeks. 7000 Noble Greeks who fought hard. But at somepoint, I think the fighting just stopped and was unable to proceed.
Furthermore, amongst a lot of people now in the Academic world there is a debate that the signal for the Immortals to retreat was in time with the information of Ephialtes. What I did hear in a Classics Seminar and unfortunately keep looking for the source and cant find it again, was that the Immortals were signaled 3-5 times to retreat and they would not, they were engaged in the most ferocious fighting with the Spartans, neither gaining ground and both suffering equal losses. This makes an accurate logical account of realistic warfare.
Finally, the initial attack was of conscripts backed by Persian levies. The second wave was the Immortals. We have no account of any losses by the Immortals. What is stated is that they faired no better in gaining ground.
One of the things that is now widely accepted is that Herodotus numbers were inaccurate. Even in the size of the Army. What he said is mass numbers. What he did not account for was who made these numbers up. Take this into account, the Pesians had two grooms per horseman. So if you brought 20,000 horsemen, that number is now up to 60,000 men. The Immortals brought their wives and sons, who were not allowed to engage in combat, and a groom. so lets say 1 wife, 1 son and 1 groom. So that number is now up to 40,000. Remember that they brought a large number of conscripts, ok, so large in these means what, lets say 50,000. Probably another 20,000 Persian Conscripts. Also, remember they had a massive Navy that took up quite a bit of soldiers as well. Further more, they brought beds, tents, chairs, chaplet weavers, perfume makers, pastry makers and cooks. Again, try and even figure that number out. But we know that it took them a minimum of 5 years to prepare the food dumps and troops and more importantly the supply personal for this.
Hans Delbruk has a wonderful way to explain this. He says clearly, the most organized marching discipline in history is that of the German Army in WWII. If the Persians marched in such tight order, taking into consideration Herodotus numbers, the first Persians of Herodotus' account would be arriving in Athens, when there were still troops leaving Persepolis.
I highly recommend the books, Warfare in Antiquity by Hans Delbruk, for Roman and Greek and Persian accounts of Military numbers and Tactics.
Finally, also remember, there was a Greek attempt to erase the history of a very famous figure, Thomesticles by the Athenians. Why? After the Persian Wars, after his brilliance led them to victory, they exiled him. He left Greece and lived in the Persian Empire and worked for Xerxes. This was a massive betrayal in the eyes of the Athenians, and they have done all they could to put the focus of their victories in particular a focus on Thermopylae and Lionades. This discredits Thomesticles, Makes the Persians seem very weak and beatable and enforces Athens ability to Lead the Region, not one man in Thomesticles. This was all put to rest with the coming of Phillip of Macedon.
So for me, it is not so much that the Greeks or Persians won or lost that war. There was no winner or loser. It swayed back and forth. But how we have disrespected even the Greeks by heroworship and not crediting them in the Military Genius that they employed to save them from a much larger and superior force that they confronted. So in crediting properly the battles and wars of that time, you appropriately credit the proper warriors and military genius of that time.
There is my brief account of the bias. Sorry for the long write, but I get tired of wikipedia and 300 being the source of historical data for people that is fueled by the Ultimate Fighter and RedBull. hahaha
Ardeshir Radpour
Ardeshir Radpour
