Button and Loop fasteners on Paenula Cloak

[Crispvs]

Brian,

I am not losing the idea of anything. You are simply making too many assumptions, while at the same time ignoring the possibility I suggested.

When I talk of 'button and loop' fasteners, like most people, I am referring to the button and the cast loop (which may or may not be triangular) which is integral to the piece. That much is concrete - everything else (including thongs which pass around buttons) is merely theoretical. We need to be able to distinguish between concrete facts and theoretical assumptions.

Like most other people who have so far contributed to this thread, I accept that these items could have been employed in a variety of roles. As I see it, you are in a party of one, when you insist on them being associated only with clothing. The rest of us seem to accept that they were probably used with clothing and probably for other things too. I think you need to be more flexible in your thinking.

I know you don't like the idea that 'button and loop' fasteners may have been used to attach sword scabbards, but the evidence is there to look at, in the Idria burial, whereas the archaeological association of 'button and loop' fasteners with surviving pieces of clothing would appear to be somewhat lacking. You may be right about the bosses either side of the scabbards on the sculptures being round belt plates, but I feel confident that the Idria burial stands as evidence that they may indeed be the 'buttons' of 'button and loop' fasteners.

You state as fact that the 'loop' part of the fastener was stitched to the inside of a garment. This seems like an assumption to me.
You asked me for evidence though, which I have provided. Let me hold you to the same standard.

If, in your admirable collection of 'button and loop' fasteners, there is one which is still sewn to a piece of material or which has the remains of stitching still adhering to it, then put a photo of it up here and end the argument. If you cannot do that, then perhaps you should not so quickly dismiss what other people suggest to you or tell you. You cannot use the Camomile Street soldier as empirical evidence for 'button and loop' fasteners as all we can see is the button, which may or may not be a 'button and loop' fastener.

I think it is entirely possible that these items were used to secure cloaks, but, in the absence of known button holes. what we are trying to get closer to in this thread is how that might have been achieved.

I think that the suggestion is reasonable that the fastening for the paenula could have been in the form of a lace or toggle inside the cloak which passed through the 'loop' part of a fastener, whose 'button' had the function of stopping the 'loop' from becoming detached.

I would like the thoughts of others on that point.

Crispvs