08-06-2013, 02:27 AM
I've started a new thread which is taken from "The Late Roman Army."
Mark wrote:
Please re-read - for I didn't say that he did.
That’s my point. Polybius does not say the triarii are organised into maniples, but you have based your theory on the premise the triarii are half maniples.
Mark wrote:
But, given I'm reading a translation and not the original Greek, please help me understand in what way the opening paragraph of BkVI/24 shows that the Triarii are organised any differently to the others? ie not in sub-unit pairings with 2 Centurions, 2 Optios and 2 Signifers each?
Livy states the hastati and principes are the antipilani, which can translate as those before the files.
Mark wrote
Not again (translation) having picked up on the Livy differentiation, I would be quite happy that he used a different, but I believe very similar and often having the same meaning, term for a maniple at normal half-strength being called an ordo/ordine. That would make sense.
Livy states an ordo had 186 men of which six were centurions. So taking your premise an ordo is half a maniple, a maniple numbers 372 men (360 legionaries and 12 centurions). Polybius discusses 10 companies and these companies can be either maniples or ordines. This is only part of the legion’s organisation, and my research shows the full organisation consists of:
The seven organisations above are reduced to six as the Tribune cohort consists of a number of picked cohorts, which are organised by property class. Because of the role they have to play, some organisations can be halved, then halved again, but this process can only be repeated twice. So because of the sub-units this would explain why there are varying names. Returning to Polybius (6 24):
“Next, in conjunction with the centurions, they divide each class into ten companies, except the velites, and assign to each company two centurions and two optiones from among the elected officers. The velites are divided equally among all the companies; these companies are called ordines or manipuli or vexilla, and their officers are called centurions or ordinum ductores.”
Polybius’ reference to dividing each class into 10 companies is interesting because he is referring to the property class system, which is an entirely different kettle of fish. It is important to remember that Polybius is also discussing the military levy. My tribal system has all the property classes organised into ten parts, so I can understand Polybius statement about dividing each class into ten companies, which Polybius calls “ordines or manipuli or vexilla.” Also notice some centurions are called “ordinum ductores.” Basically what he is saying is those centurions who command units that fall within the organisation of an ordo are termed ordinum ductores.
When it comes to the legion organisation, the ten companies Polybius has discussed can be either “ordines or manipuli or vexilla,” and shouldn’t be interpreted to mean the 1200 hastati and 1200 principes are organised into maniples, which seems to be the current trend.
Mark wrote
I have come to think my theory (and its adjuncts) might have some merit,
From my experience Mark, and this is what kept making the road difficult for me to travel, was the knowledge I had gained about the Roman legion from the years of reading books by modern historians. If you want to make inroads, flush your brain of everything you have read and only keep to the primary sources. I strongly recommend you start with a blank mind and reject every modern concept about the Roman army. This will be to your benefit.
Mark wrote:
Please re-read - for I didn't say that he did.
That’s my point. Polybius does not say the triarii are organised into maniples, but you have based your theory on the premise the triarii are half maniples.
Mark wrote:
But, given I'm reading a translation and not the original Greek, please help me understand in what way the opening paragraph of BkVI/24 shows that the Triarii are organised any differently to the others? ie not in sub-unit pairings with 2 Centurions, 2 Optios and 2 Signifers each?
Livy states the hastati and principes are the antipilani, which can translate as those before the files.
Mark wrote
Not again (translation) having picked up on the Livy differentiation, I would be quite happy that he used a different, but I believe very similar and often having the same meaning, term for a maniple at normal half-strength being called an ordo/ordine. That would make sense.
Livy states an ordo had 186 men of which six were centurions. So taking your premise an ordo is half a maniple, a maniple numbers 372 men (360 legionaries and 12 centurions). Polybius discusses 10 companies and these companies can be either maniples or ordines. This is only part of the legion’s organisation, and my research shows the full organisation consists of:
Tribune cohort
Standard cohort
Picked cohort
Maniple
Signum
Ordo
Century
Standard cohort
Picked cohort
Maniple
Signum
Ordo
Century
The seven organisations above are reduced to six as the Tribune cohort consists of a number of picked cohorts, which are organised by property class. Because of the role they have to play, some organisations can be halved, then halved again, but this process can only be repeated twice. So because of the sub-units this would explain why there are varying names. Returning to Polybius (6 24):
“Next, in conjunction with the centurions, they divide each class into ten companies, except the velites, and assign to each company two centurions and two optiones from among the elected officers. The velites are divided equally among all the companies; these companies are called ordines or manipuli or vexilla, and their officers are called centurions or ordinum ductores.”
Polybius’ reference to dividing each class into 10 companies is interesting because he is referring to the property class system, which is an entirely different kettle of fish. It is important to remember that Polybius is also discussing the military levy. My tribal system has all the property classes organised into ten parts, so I can understand Polybius statement about dividing each class into ten companies, which Polybius calls “ordines or manipuli or vexilla.” Also notice some centurions are called “ordinum ductores.” Basically what he is saying is those centurions who command units that fall within the organisation of an ordo are termed ordinum ductores.
When it comes to the legion organisation, the ten companies Polybius has discussed can be either “ordines or manipuli or vexilla,” and shouldn’t be interpreted to mean the 1200 hastati and 1200 principes are organised into maniples, which seems to be the current trend.
Mark wrote
I have come to think my theory (and its adjuncts) might have some merit,
From my experience Mark, and this is what kept making the road difficult for me to travel, was the knowledge I had gained about the Roman legion from the years of reading books by modern historians. If you want to make inroads, flush your brain of everything you have read and only keep to the primary sources. I strongly recommend you start with a blank mind and reject every modern concept about the Roman army. This will be to your benefit.
