11-17-2011, 10:14 AM
Mr Campbell wrote: It is usually assumed that the late legion was smaller than its imperial predecessor, so I don't think you'll find much support for a 7,200-man unit. (Just my opinion.)
I’m advocating units of 1200 men not one unit of 7200 men. However, a 4800 man legion can consist of six units of 800 men, and a 6000 man legion can consist of six units of 1000 men.
Adrian wrote: Not sure if your getting too many people joining your camp as the current received wisdom has Late Roman legiones being around 1200 men strong.
That is what I am advocating: units at 1200 men.
Adrian wrote: It's not something I entirely agree with, and once I can find a copy of Zosimus in the original Greek (or I may write to Ridley and ask him direct) I will check one particular passage that may throw some light on the matter.
Ridley is in Rome at this very moment. Hmm, I’ve been informed someone has been making enquiries about me.
Adrian wrote: I'm also hoping that the translation of those Anastasian Edict stones from Perge by Onur may also throw some light on Late Roman unit sizes.
How did you know my sources were the Anastasian Edict stones from Perge by Onur. I left three dragons to guard the vault. Oh well, I got myself to blame. I was warned the Avatarian dragons are lazy…but they do come cheap.
Adrian wrote: From Zosimus we know that Late Roman auxilia units were 1000 men strong, and I would think that the Legiones would have been larger, how much larger is open to much debate!
That’s what I suspected. There isn’t enough information.
Sean Manning wrote: That one seems really hard ... we don't have many descriptions of paper organization in the late empire.
Thanks, that is what I thought was the case. I feel better having it confirmed.
Nathan Ross wrote: I would suggest some more detailed background reading might be your best bet. You seem to be conflating aspects of the Republican manipular legion with later Roman terms.
Some of the material I have been reading has been very frustrating and not helpful. So far I’ve read about units of 1000 men or 1200 men but no has given references. I do know of the one given by Zosimus of 6000 men divided into five regiments. I don’t have a problem in using the organisation of the previous legion as a springboard to try and determine the organisation of the next army organisation. Having the maths go pear shaped can indicate an organisational reform.
Nathan Ross wrote: But I'm not sure whether you're actually trying to research the organisation of the army, or just searching for bits of evidence to map onto your theory about astronomy.
I’m after information on the organisation of the Roman army and at the same time trying to experiment how six units of 1200 men could be organised. I don’t understand if a legio was 1200 men, how you could have a legion of 1200 exculcatores and be expected to fight close combat. However, a vertical organisation of 1200 men consisting of one third exculcatores would make sense, but the NT gives the names of units of exculcatores. So maybe the parts join up and become a whole. By following Lydus I am starting to think that units of 1200 men of the same troop type are possibly organised into cohorts of 300 men. However, units of 1200 men of the same troop type could also be formed into larger units numbering 3600 men made up of three troop types. Of the 7200 men, 3600 are iuniores and 3600 are seniores. These 3600 men are then vertically organised into three units of 1200 men made up of different troop types, possibly one type is exculatores, the second lanciarii and to the third, I have no idea, but possibly lanciarii again. In this manner the army has a vertical organisation and horizontal organisation each numbering 1200 men. I’m basing my research on units of 1000 men are pre 400 AD and units of 1200 men are post 400 AD.
Steven
I’m advocating units of 1200 men not one unit of 7200 men. However, a 4800 man legion can consist of six units of 800 men, and a 6000 man legion can consist of six units of 1000 men.
Adrian wrote: Not sure if your getting too many people joining your camp as the current received wisdom has Late Roman legiones being around 1200 men strong.
That is what I am advocating: units at 1200 men.
Adrian wrote: It's not something I entirely agree with, and once I can find a copy of Zosimus in the original Greek (or I may write to Ridley and ask him direct) I will check one particular passage that may throw some light on the matter.
Ridley is in Rome at this very moment. Hmm, I’ve been informed someone has been making enquiries about me.
Adrian wrote: I'm also hoping that the translation of those Anastasian Edict stones from Perge by Onur may also throw some light on Late Roman unit sizes.
How did you know my sources were the Anastasian Edict stones from Perge by Onur. I left three dragons to guard the vault. Oh well, I got myself to blame. I was warned the Avatarian dragons are lazy…but they do come cheap.
Adrian wrote: From Zosimus we know that Late Roman auxilia units were 1000 men strong, and I would think that the Legiones would have been larger, how much larger is open to much debate!
That’s what I suspected. There isn’t enough information.
Sean Manning wrote: That one seems really hard ... we don't have many descriptions of paper organization in the late empire.
Thanks, that is what I thought was the case. I feel better having it confirmed.
Nathan Ross wrote: I would suggest some more detailed background reading might be your best bet. You seem to be conflating aspects of the Republican manipular legion with later Roman terms.
Some of the material I have been reading has been very frustrating and not helpful. So far I’ve read about units of 1000 men or 1200 men but no has given references. I do know of the one given by Zosimus of 6000 men divided into five regiments. I don’t have a problem in using the organisation of the previous legion as a springboard to try and determine the organisation of the next army organisation. Having the maths go pear shaped can indicate an organisational reform.
Nathan Ross wrote: But I'm not sure whether you're actually trying to research the organisation of the army, or just searching for bits of evidence to map onto your theory about astronomy.
I’m after information on the organisation of the Roman army and at the same time trying to experiment how six units of 1200 men could be organised. I don’t understand if a legio was 1200 men, how you could have a legion of 1200 exculcatores and be expected to fight close combat. However, a vertical organisation of 1200 men consisting of one third exculcatores would make sense, but the NT gives the names of units of exculcatores. So maybe the parts join up and become a whole. By following Lydus I am starting to think that units of 1200 men of the same troop type are possibly organised into cohorts of 300 men. However, units of 1200 men of the same troop type could also be formed into larger units numbering 3600 men made up of three troop types. Of the 7200 men, 3600 are iuniores and 3600 are seniores. These 3600 men are then vertically organised into three units of 1200 men made up of different troop types, possibly one type is exculatores, the second lanciarii and to the third, I have no idea, but possibly lanciarii again. In this manner the army has a vertical organisation and horizontal organisation each numbering 1200 men. I’m basing my research on units of 1000 men are pre 400 AD and units of 1200 men are post 400 AD.
Steven
