08-14-2010, 02:15 AM
Ruben wrote:
To help clarify matters, the 'thorakes' Xenophon refers to was in fact an Infantry type, borrowed from a Hoplite when Xenophon raised his troop of extemporised cavalry, probably a bronze muscled cuirass ( Xen. Anabasis III.3 - the outfitting of 50 cavalry- and III.4, heavy going wearing the armour and carrying a shield on foot....). This demonstrates that Infantry-type 'spolades'/Tube-and-Yoke armour and bronze 'thorakes' could be worn on horseback.
However, as Giannis has pointed out, this was not ideal because a rider sits a horse with hips splayed and this is very uncomfortable, and often very difficult in body armour that fits snugly over the hips of a man standing on foot. As a result, specialised cavalry cuirasses in all periods have been developed that better suit a man astride a horse. They are normally splayed out at the hips, and generally have larger arm-holes to allow freer movement of the arms.
'Spolades' type Tube-and-yoke corselets are also modified for specific mounted use. The waist-line from which the flexible 'pteryges' hang is raised from waist to diaphragm, and the shoulder pieces/yoke/'epotides' are often narrower, again to allow freer arm movement ( see e.g. the example painted in the tomb of Lyson and Kallikles).
Once the observer knows what to look for, the differences between 'foot' and 'horse' corselets and cuirasses are easily seen. It can be readily seen that the iron cuirass in question from the 'Philip' tomb is not a cavalry cuirass, and as reported by Porporis, is probably difficult to wear mounted.....
Quote:Well, that's simply his opinion, and certainly not a pronouncement on whether ancient riders did or did not use such a cuirass on horseback. We know, for instance, that early Sarmatians rode with muscle cuirasses that weren't specifically designed for cavalrymen, though many people today state that they would hinder a rider too much to be worn.I'm assuming this comes from examples found in tombs? Do you have illustrated examples?
Quote:Giannis wrote: At least is is certain that there were indeed cuirasses that were designed for cavalry only (Xenophon calles his a cavalry cuirass that hindranced him too much when he dismounted and ran with a shield together with the other hoplites)
I don't see why some cuirasses couldn't be designed only for infantry. Especially for this particular cuirass we can speculate much,since we don't have any other finds nor mentions of such a cuirass.
Well, I think it was probably more that the default cuirass was designed for infantry, and then there were special cavalry cuirasses, but yes, there clearly were distinct types. However, what about the form of this cuirass makes you think that it was designed for fighting on foot specifically?
To help clarify matters, the 'thorakes' Xenophon refers to was in fact an Infantry type, borrowed from a Hoplite when Xenophon raised his troop of extemporised cavalry, probably a bronze muscled cuirass ( Xen. Anabasis III.3 - the outfitting of 50 cavalry- and III.4, heavy going wearing the armour and carrying a shield on foot....). This demonstrates that Infantry-type 'spolades'/Tube-and-Yoke armour and bronze 'thorakes' could be worn on horseback.
However, as Giannis has pointed out, this was not ideal because a rider sits a horse with hips splayed and this is very uncomfortable, and often very difficult in body armour that fits snugly over the hips of a man standing on foot. As a result, specialised cavalry cuirasses in all periods have been developed that better suit a man astride a horse. They are normally splayed out at the hips, and generally have larger arm-holes to allow freer movement of the arms.
'Spolades' type Tube-and-yoke corselets are also modified for specific mounted use. The waist-line from which the flexible 'pteryges' hang is raised from waist to diaphragm, and the shoulder pieces/yoke/'epotides' are often narrower, again to allow freer arm movement ( see e.g. the example painted in the tomb of Lyson and Kallikles).
Once the observer knows what to look for, the differences between 'foot' and 'horse' corselets and cuirasses are easily seen. It can be readily seen that the iron cuirass in question from the 'Philip' tomb is not a cavalry cuirass, and as reported by Porporis, is probably difficult to wear mounted.....
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
