Glued Linen Armour- a simple test

[Paullus Scipio]

Scott/Rocktupac wrote:

there is nothing in the visual evidence which suggests them to be quilted.

...I would suggest that the diamond pattern with a dot in the middle would most probably be seen, even by modern eyes, as quilting ( see also the vase painting John Conyard posted). What else might it be interpreted as with any confidence? As you say:

and this is exactly how one would expect them to appear: not smooth or lacking definable quilting marks, but checkered or grid-like. This quilted-grid design would have been familiar to any viewer and they would have immediately recognized this as a quilted undergarment. (See especially the soldier looking back in horror directly below Darius frantically holding onto a horse's reins.)

The 'quilting' is most obvious on the corselet of Darius' driver, and can be contrasted with the relatively smooth corselet of the cavalryman hand on head.

Homer certainly does use the word. It is not modern. The lesser Ajax wears a "linothorex" in 2.529, and later at 2.830 Adrastus and Amphius also wear one (...Adrestos te kai Amphios linothorex...).

I've no wish to split hairs over the exact spelling, especially as ancient Greek is often rendered into our alphabet in sevral ways. I'll happily concede that Homer's word is close enough to the modern 'linothorax'.

How can you be certain? Not one Greek army or contingent, regardless of the enormous expense of bronze armor, wore the linen tube-and-yoke corselet in the Classical Age? Is there evidence to support this?

You are taking my words out out of context. I was pointing out that Homer's references to 'linen' armour, supported by Mycenaean frescos such as the 12 C BC example from Pylos showing white 'linen' greaves, are not evidence for the use of 'linen' armour 700 years later. As to your question, of course we cannot be sure, but the point is that there is not one solid piece of evidence that mainland Greek States of the Classical era used linen to make armour, despite the fact that they obviously knew of the practice of foreign Anatolian barbarians.....
As i have indicated, Nepos passage is very suspicious and definitely anachronistic.The phrase he uses is "pro sertis atquae linteas dedit" - the word "sertis" = interwoven meaning that the armour was interwoven, which can hardly be a reference to anything but mail.

To dismiss the Amasis reference as a mere garment is unfounded in my opinion.

As I say, the word 'thorakes' older meaning is 'body covering' - in this sense it can even mean the discarded sloughed skin of a snake ! I repeat, no Greek Goddess ( IIRC) is ever depicted in a corselet, only Amazons. Even if it is a corselet, it is an Egyptian one, not Greek.

With regard to Xenophon, you simply prove the point. Nowhere is Greek armour described as linen, only foreign/barbarian/anatolian - and significantly he never says "like ours", but rather uses the epithet 'linen' to distinguish foreign armour. ( see previous threads for detailed discussion) Greek armour is either plain 'thorakes' (presumably a reference to bronze muscled cuirasses) or 'spolades' -leather Tube-and-Yoke corselets, which equates well with these two types of body armour in iconography.

After all, to use Plutarch once again, Alexander is mentioned as having a linen corselet before Gaugamela. I am partly playing Devil's advocate. I realize, at this point, it is impossible to determine one way or another.

The one and only time (AFIK) a Greek/Macedonian is described as wearing a linen corselet, we are specifically told it was Persian, captured in the spoils of Issus!