10-07-2008, 08:10 AM
Ruben wrote:
Swords are fairly rare, and consist mainly of long and short types with ( usually) a crescent shaped pommel - but a number of ring-shaped pommels are also found - and these graves go back to the 4C BC, hence are the origin of 'ring pommels', likely to be an evolution of the earlier crescent type.
The Rox-Alani overan and seized the steppe between the Don and the Dnieper in the 2nd C BC, pushing the Iazyges around the coast as far as the Danube delta by the 1st C BC ( the Romans sent a punitive expedition against the Iazyges as early as 78-76 BC). Burebista, the powerful King of Dacia around 50 BC pushed the Iazyges back, but after his death, the Iazyges resumed their westward migration and reached the Danube delta again. By AD 6, and again in AD 16 they attack Rome across the Danube, in alliance with the Dacians ( see e.g. Ovid)
As early as 110 BC ( 2 C BC) the Rox-Alani are north of the Crimea and allying with Crimean Scythians against the Bosporans ( Strabo).Despite defeat by the Bosporans, aided by the Pontic army. In 107 BC the Rox-Alani are back as allies of Mithradates of Pontus in his conquest of the Bosporan kingdom.
It is the rise of Dacian power under Burebista,weakening the Bastarnae, that finally allows the Rox-Alani, under pressure from their Aorsi cousins, to move westward across the Dnieper in the mid 1st C BC. By 62-63 AD, like the Iazyges before them, they are attacking Roman Moesia across the Danube. ( BTW; something like 100,000 'TransDanubian' Dacian refugees are permitted to settle in Roman Moesia).
Rox-Alani graves from as early as the late 2nd century B.C, and growing more plentiful through the 1st C BC ,occur North-West of the sea of Azov, between the lower Dnieper and the Molochna, and several 'ring-pommel' swords have been found.
I think therefore that the mass of evidence ( archaeological and literary) favours the earlier dating I have referred to. It would appear the 'ring-pommel' type may have originated as early as the late 4th/early 3rd C BC, and by the end of the 2nd C BC would have been familiar to Dacians in contact with Iazyges and Rox-Alani. Certainly Dacian types are remarkably similar in form, as can be seen in the illustrations above, to Sarmatian types, that it would be safe to say the Dacians/Getae adopted and adapted the ring-pommel type during the 1st C BC, probably around Burebista's rise mid century. It is certainly incorrect that 'ring pommel' swords only appear between the Aral and Caspian seas and north of the Caucasus at that time, because 'at that time' Sarmatian ring-pommel swords had already reached the Dnieper/Crimea/Black sea area, as evidenced by the grave finds.
Perhaps one should say that the 'ring-pommel' type first appears in the late 4th-early 3rd C BC, becomes the predominant type from the 2nd C BC-2nd C AD, and is still common among western Sarmatians in the 3rd C AD, as evidenced by the many Hungarian finds of this date. The Dacians likely adopted and adapted the type during the 1st C BC from contacts with the Sarmatians ( as later, of course, did the Romans themselves.)
I suspect that in fact the apparent differences in dating are not so substantial at the end of the day.
Quote:Yes, the ring-pommel sword has its roots farther east, but the discussion at hand is about the western Sarmatians, and they did not adopt the ring pommel sword until the early 1st c. BC. Ring pommel weapons only appear in the region between the Aral and Caspian seas and north of the Caucasus at that time, and they spread from there.Well, again, according to the above sources, over 370 graves belonging to the Saratov ( on the lower Volga) group have been excavated ( The early Rox-Alani).[see Shilov et al]
Swords are fairly rare, and consist mainly of long and short types with ( usually) a crescent shaped pommel - but a number of ring-shaped pommels are also found - and these graves go back to the 4C BC, hence are the origin of 'ring pommels', likely to be an evolution of the earlier crescent type.
The Rox-Alani overan and seized the steppe between the Don and the Dnieper in the 2nd C BC, pushing the Iazyges around the coast as far as the Danube delta by the 1st C BC ( the Romans sent a punitive expedition against the Iazyges as early as 78-76 BC). Burebista, the powerful King of Dacia around 50 BC pushed the Iazyges back, but after his death, the Iazyges resumed their westward migration and reached the Danube delta again. By AD 6, and again in AD 16 they attack Rome across the Danube, in alliance with the Dacians ( see e.g. Ovid)
As early as 110 BC ( 2 C BC) the Rox-Alani are north of the Crimea and allying with Crimean Scythians against the Bosporans ( Strabo).Despite defeat by the Bosporans, aided by the Pontic army. In 107 BC the Rox-Alani are back as allies of Mithradates of Pontus in his conquest of the Bosporan kingdom.
It is the rise of Dacian power under Burebista,weakening the Bastarnae, that finally allows the Rox-Alani, under pressure from their Aorsi cousins, to move westward across the Dnieper in the mid 1st C BC. By 62-63 AD, like the Iazyges before them, they are attacking Roman Moesia across the Danube. ( BTW; something like 100,000 'TransDanubian' Dacian refugees are permitted to settle in Roman Moesia).
Rox-Alani graves from as early as the late 2nd century B.C, and growing more plentiful through the 1st C BC ,occur North-West of the sea of Azov, between the lower Dnieper and the Molochna, and several 'ring-pommel' swords have been found.
I think therefore that the mass of evidence ( archaeological and literary) favours the earlier dating I have referred to. It would appear the 'ring-pommel' type may have originated as early as the late 4th/early 3rd C BC, and by the end of the 2nd C BC would have been familiar to Dacians in contact with Iazyges and Rox-Alani. Certainly Dacian types are remarkably similar in form, as can be seen in the illustrations above, to Sarmatian types, that it would be safe to say the Dacians/Getae adopted and adapted the ring-pommel type during the 1st C BC, probably around Burebista's rise mid century. It is certainly incorrect that 'ring pommel' swords only appear between the Aral and Caspian seas and north of the Caucasus at that time, because 'at that time' Sarmatian ring-pommel swords had already reached the Dnieper/Crimea/Black sea area, as evidenced by the grave finds.
Perhaps one should say that the 'ring-pommel' type first appears in the late 4th-early 3rd C BC, becomes the predominant type from the 2nd C BC-2nd C AD, and is still common among western Sarmatians in the 3rd C AD, as evidenced by the many Hungarian finds of this date. The Dacians likely adopted and adapted the type during the 1st C BC from contacts with the Sarmatians ( as later, of course, did the Romans themselves.)
I suspect that in fact the apparent differences in dating are not so substantial at the end of the day.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
