Leather Cuirass Lorica Musculata, I used to think no way but

[Tarbicus]

No high ranker is going to want to be sweaty and smelly, civillian or military. lol

What are you talking about mate? They all stank. Rome stank to high heaven.

Sweat? Real men sweat. Foppish girly actors smell of roses.

[Magnus]

Hahahahahahah...fair enough! I guess it's too cold in Canada for us to sweat much. :wink:

[Dan Howard]

AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs\\n[quote]
2. An observation from feigelsonjulius

“the words corselet is French and I believe
means "small or short leather". "Cors" of corselet seems to be
derived from "cours" which means leather. That's where we
get "cuirass" which is a leather "corselet.â€

[Ironhand]

Good point about the metal muscled cuirass. I might actually be interested in one if I could see at least one example that did not make the wearer look like a turtle.

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Salve,

I am reading many interesting points however; with respect to the statements that the artist is using ‘artistic license’ due please note that these portraits, as the majority of Roman sculpture of living individuals, showed every wrinkle, every double chin, and every reseeding hair line. The sculptor didn’t use artistic license to make Vitellius ugly and extra fat, or wrinkles Pompey’s forehead, or make an older Caesar look more sickly… instead they strived to make the sculptures appear as real as possible.

[url:33dbty24]http://www.congiano.com/Extras/Recreation/Vitellius.jpg[/url]





Dan: with respect… I do not believe the Emperors are wearing a costume as much as they are possibly not wearing their full battle armor. I agree that a lorica made of linen or leather would not be ideal in battle alone.

I still believe that when heading to battle, the Emperor would strap a belt and sword on, put a helmet on his head, and ware chainmaile… then like a Centurion’s belts and disks, he would place his lorica over the chainmaile.

Now, you may disagree but honestly… there is some progressive logic and historical basis in my opinion; but can I prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt… no.

The abridged and simple version is this…. Marius reformed the armies of Rome and the three disk armor disappeared and was replaced largely by chainmaile and chainmaile based armors.

1. The basic, most common was a chainmaile shirt
2. Progressively, chainmaile shoulder doublers were added
3. A Centurion wore a chainmaile shirt but added straps and disk décor
4. I read about examples of a Plumata’s plates woven into chainmaile
5. An Officer ‘could have’ worn chainmaile and slipped his lorica over it

A second, and I’m sure far more popular theory (which I also would agree is absolutely possible) is… the Emperors are wearing a lighter linen or leather lorica off the battle field, that is portrayed in the sculptures, and they would wear a lorica made from brass or bronze on the battle field.

Lastly, and perhaps most intriguing is… even though the amount of decorated loricas would be minimal (numbers of officers to legionary) not even a piece of a decorated lorica (as we see in sculptures) has ever been found. I guess that was the fuel that sparked Travis Lee Clark to begin his essay. [url:33dbty24]http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/bronze_leather.htm[/url]

[Dan Diffendale]

The abridged and simple version is this…. Marius reformed the armies of Rome and the three disk armor disappeared and was replaced largely by chainmaile and chainmaile based armors.

Just to butt in here, the triple-disc cuirass disappeared probably a century or more before Marius, at least based on the lack of archaeological, representational, or literary attestation, and it's questionable whether or not it was ever worn by Romans.

[Dan Howard]

I am reading many interesting points however; with respect to the statements that the artist is using ‘artistic license’ due please note that these portraits, as the majority of Roman sculpture of living individuals, showed every wrinkle, every double chin, and every reseeding hair line. The sculptor didn’t use artistic license to make Vitellius ugly and extra fat, or wrinkles Pompey’s forehead, or make an older Caesar look more sickly… instead they strived to make the sculptures appear as real as possible.

Irrelevant unless you can demonstrate that all the sculptures we are looking at were done by the same artist. Not every artist has the same interpretation. Not every artist has the same brief when given a commission.

Dan: with respect… I do not believe the Emperors are wearing a costume as much as they are possibly not wearing their full battle armor. I agree that a lorica made of linen or leather would not be ideal in battle alone.

How do you define "armour". IMO if it doesn't have a chance of resisting the most common weapons on a contemporary battlefield then it cannot meet this definition. Anything as flexible as these things you are showing in these scupltures cannot be defined as armour. It must therefore be costume.

BTW has anyone ever demonstrasted that the Romans actually HAD parade armour? Just because some medieval cultures used it doesn't mean that everyone else did too.

[Tarbicus]

BTW has anyone ever demonstrasted that the Romans actually HAD parade armour? Just because some medieval cultures used it doesn't mean that everyone else did too.

Most recent publications I've read do away with the notion of 'parade armour' and suggest the men liked to look good in battle and for any other occasion including cooking. Okay, an exaggeration with the cooking, but...

I keep expecting tin-plated sponge sticks to turn up.

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Salve Danno,

You said

Just to butt in here, the triple-disc cuirass disappeared probably a century or more before Marius, at least based on the lack of archaeological, representational, or literary attestation, and it's questionable whether or not it was ever worn by Romans.

I recalled reading that the three disk armor was replaced by chainmaile... I found the reference I was remembering however; after re-reading the passage, it does not say “three diskâ€

[Tarbicus]

“the common soldiers wear ... a breastplate of brass a span square, which they place in front of the heart and call the heart-protector (pectorale),

Probably just the simple square plate suspended on the chest by leather straps. See Johnny's pic here:
http://server6.theimagehosting.com/imag ... ic.8c9.jpg

I don't know if they were all embossed with muscular features. I've seen other illustrations where they were just plain brass squares.

[Lucius Cornelius Traianus]

This Leather Muscled Cuirass I had made for me by a Spanish Leather Art tanner.

It was sent to me without the ornaments. I had to affix them to the Cuirass myself.

I confess that to actually pierce the leather I had to apply much pressure to the ice pick type tool. As not to damage or hurt my hand due the intense pressure I had to use to open each hole needed to attach the ornaments, I ended up using an electric drill.



Attached are the photos of the leather cuirass. I hope that these photos come through, it has been a long time since I last posted photos.



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/ ... oraza1.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/ ... oraza2.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/ ... oraza3.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/ ... oraza4.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/ ... 0442-1.jpg

This was the model that I used for the Leather Tanner to follow. A roman legion Camp Prefect.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/ ... 0442-1.jpg


Stephen McMahon

[Lucius Cornelius Traianus]

Sorry about the photo of the Camp Prefect. The one posted was a repeat of myself & wife in a Roman Reenactment Day of Uxama (Burgo de Osma, Soria-Spain)

This was the intended photo that I wanted to post.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e221/ ... etor04.jpg

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Slave Stephen,

That is an awesome looking impression! I really like the attic helmet also!

Have you considered adding additional layers of Pteruges? I’m just starting on my Subarmalis and I’m thinking about making three layers of Pteruges for both the shoulders and the waist. Simultaneously, I’m working on making an attic helmet, I'm fabricating it from what was a Corinthian helmet, and I'm changing the sword handle to an eagles head on my gladius and I just picked up a Zodica wall plaque that I’m planning on cutting up for appliqués on my back of my cuirass… of course I also have 10 animal head belt buckles for the tongue Pteruges too!

I wonder if this project will ever actually end? :roll:

Anyways… congrats on a great looking impression!

[Lucius Cornelius Traianus]

Yes, Anthony

I should have added another layer of Ptergues on the shoulders but I was not sure how they would come out to look at the end.

I think three layers would be too much.

As someone mentioned early in the subject. Wearing this Cuirass all day one looses weight due to sweat. We usually perform in the summer and early months of fall. With very high temperatures. I usually can loose anywheres from 3 to 5 kgs in weight over a weekend. Plus the inside of the cuirass usually turns white from the sweat and when I have to remove it, it actually sticks to my tunic.

As for the Attic helmet, it is a reworked Brass Auxiliary Helmet type B. However, I should have had the visor made less higher. I think that it is too pronounced in height, however, I am delighted with the art work.

As you said, I wonder if this project will ever eventually end. My wife hopes so. I have 5 gladius, 4 helmets, 1 pugio, and etc.

Stephen McMahon

[Celtic505]

Great impression Stephen! Although I must agree with Anthony about the amount of pteruges. Most people (hollywood, artists, even reenactors) get this part wrong. There's always waaaaaay too few on most impressions or representations, covering only the front or leaving space between the front and back. Every representation has tons and tons of them going all around, usually with double layers as well, you can't see through them there's so many of them. I don't know how they moved in so many but they found a way, and I wish they would've left a clue cuz I'm having some trouble here...I feel like I'm wearing a grass hula skirt. :wink: