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Linothorax again
No archer could stand a chance agiainst Asley!!!!!
32 layers!!! OK I think my question was resolved after that.

After the late 80s ceramic comsosites were indroduced in the modern kevlar armours. Similar staff to the "Chombam" in tanks but nore flexible.
I think the firm is called Keradyne. We can take that to off topic though if more people are interested.

Kind regards
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Don't forget the Thebes find. Salimbeti seems to think that the partial linothorax there consisted of 10-15 layers. So 30 layers for the torso seems too high. But there is no reason why more layers could not be in the shoulders. Especially if the armour is double-breasted.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Dan,
What is this Thebes find? I had thought no scrap of a linothorax had ever been found. Is this recent, or just long overlooked?
Pecunia non olet
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Thebe in Greece John 80 km north of Athens.
The following link will answer most of your querries I think.
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... wtopic=290
Kind regards
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Yep. We now have two independent fragments of layered linen - the Thebes find and the earlier one at Mycenae.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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So this is from the Mycenean rather than the Classical period? No doubt it woll help, but I'd still like to see a specimen from tha Classical era.
Pecunia non olet
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Wouldn't we all john, hopefully one day one will turn up. the Thebes find has been tentatively dated around 900 BC so in the middle of the so called Greek dark ages.

Jason
"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again." Maya Angelou
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Quote:Salimbeti posted a week or so ago that part of a linothorax has been found at Thebes. He thinks that it consisted of at least 10 layers but could be as many as 15 layers. The fragment still had part of the border attached so it was more likely to have been a linothorax rather than a folded bolt of cloth. It increases the likelihood that the fragment found at Mycenae was also from a linothorax. It also puts another nail into the coffins of those who still think the linothorax was made from leather or linen-covered plate.

I wonder if this last sentence slightly misses the point. Surely the question should not be whether the linothorax was made of linen, but whether the Archaic-Classical cuirass with shoulder-yoke and pteryges (which is what most people here seem to be interested in reconstructing) was in fact a linothorax. While we have plenty of references to linen armour in 7th-century and earlier sources like Homer and Alkaios, there are few - no? - references to Greek linen armour in the heyday of the shoulder-piece cuirass, say 550-400 BC.

cheers,
Duncan
cheers,
Duncan
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So what are you thinking, Duncan? That this type of armour wasn't known as a linothorax and that it was, in fact, made of leather or that it wasn't known as a linothorax and was, in fact, made of metal?

I favour the "linen linothorax" argument myself, but I can see an argument for the same item being produced in leather or a combination of leather and linen.

I'm against the metal theory on the grounds that it seems an odd way to design metal armour - and metal armour in styles better suited to metalwork was already available, so why force the material into this awkward construction method? Okay, Philip had it done, but I'd guess he wanted to give the appearance of dressing like everyone else, while having extra protection to surprise would-be assassins. This would be a good way to find out who your friends aren't, before you die.

Another reason is the art; those stiffly upstanding straps from the epomides don't look like hinged metal.

You mention a lack of references to linen armour in the literature of the Classical Period; are there references to leather body armour? Are there references to metal armour that don't relate to the usual cuirass types?
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Well a decimation of the middle artisan class during and after the peoponessian war meant that there were fewr skilled people and scarce materials. That why we see the ascenacy of the peltast and ekdomos.
That canpartlky explain the lack of references.
Philip certainly made sure to arm his troops heavily and Greek city state took advantage of the brioef respite to arm themselves. that why heavy infantry reappears in the Hellenistic age.
Also it is estimated only 15% of ancient sources survive.
Kind regards
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Quote:So what are you thinking, Duncan? That this type of armour wasn't known as a linothorax and that it was, in fact, made of leather or that it wasn't known as a linothorax and was, in fact, made of metal?
I'm thinking "I don't know", mostly. It just strikes me that there seems to be no evidence to link the word linothorax with the cuirass with shoulder-yoke and pteryges, and most of the literary references are earlier than the armour. Tim Everson's recent Warfare in Ancient Greece suggests that the "shoulder-piece corselet", the term he uses, was originally made of linen but that later on, leather examples became commoner. He doesn't give detailed arguments or references, but he seems to be influenced by Jarva's Archaeologia on Greek Body-Armour, which I haven't read (and which seems none too easy to get hold of). The cuirasses from the Alexander Sarcophagus, for instance, look much less "boxy" than the types on 6th-5th century vases, and have longer, more flexible pteryges. Could this be because they are leather, and the earlier examples stiffened linen? Or are they just thinner?

However since most, if not all, of the literary references to linothorakes or thorakes lineoi seem to predate the introduction of the "shoulder-piece corselet" I would suspect that they refer to a different type of cuirass entirely. (And this may still be true even if the shoulder-piece corselet is [sometimes or always] made out of linen!)

Quote:I'm against the metal theory on the grounds that it seems an odd way to design metal armour - and metal armour in styles better suited to metalwork was already available, so why force the material into this awkward construction method? Okay, Philip had it done, but I'd guess he wanted to give the appearance of dressing like everyone else, while having extra protection to surprise would-be assassins. This would be a good way to find out who your friends aren't, before you die.
Another reason is the art; those stiffly upstanding straps from the epomides don't look like hinged metal.
I don't find metal particularly convincing, either, for much the same reasons. It does seem possible that some such cuirasses had metal plates incorporated in them - it's always seemed odd to me that metal scales down the sides seem to be commoner in art than metal reinforcements on the front, and maybe that's because some frontal metal plates were used, but covered. But I doubt it was ever standard.

So I suppose I am saying that I don't think "this type of armour" was known as a linothorax and that I suspect it was, at least sometimes, made of leather.

Quote:You mention a lack of references to linen armour in the literature of the Classical Period; are there references to leather body armour? Are there references to metal armour that don't relate to the usual cuirass types?
Ah, there's the rub. There aren't many references to metal or leather armour either! I did wonder if the spolas might be a leather shoulder-piece corselet. It occurs in Xenophon's Anabasis as a body-armour, and in Pollux's Onomastikon as being made of leather. But the word is also used for some sort of jerkin in a non-military context, and there is nothing direct to link it to the shoulder-piece corselet.

cheers,
Duncan
cheers,
Duncan
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Duncan Head

I glad to see I’m not the only one who seems to have found that Jarva's book is rather difficult to find.

I’m unfamiliar with the reference in Pollux's Onomastikonto the spolas could you elaborate a bit? Outside of Xenophon the only other reference I’ve seen is one from Aristophanes and in that context the implication seems to differentiate it somewhat from just clothing.

I’ve often seen Xenophon’s reference used to suggest a lack of armor (for example Snodgrass reduces it to a light jerken and reinforces that view by taking the parade in Anabasis 1.2.16 out of context), but it seems to me the who point of his descriton at 4.1.18 is that the spolas like the shield or the man’s bones would have been expected to stop the arrows penetration in a way that the dead man’s chiton was not.
Paul Klos

\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
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Most people associate Spollas with Ekdromoi or Ifikratian peltasts.
I can ubserstand its usefulness in the Ekdromoi Peltastast service.

Some usefull tips about ancients and skin/leather.
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... wtopic=269
Linear B alfabet words about leather items
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... id=4393318

Question:
15 linen layers stop blows. How many skin/leather layers you need for effective protection? Any weight mesurements also? Has anybody tried it to see how efective is?

Kind regards
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I think I would take a different tact and associate the spolas with exactly who we know; courtesy of Xenophon was wearing it, mercenaries. While some men like Xenophon were political exiles, it seem me most were more likely driven to the profession due to poverty or similar economic factors. The cuirass was one place a mercenary hoplite could cut costs since the chest was nominally already covered by his aspis. That is I presume the potential mercenary would have to cut cost somewhere, since I think that if he could afford a full hoplite kit, he would not likely be under economic pressure to become a mercenary…

I tend to see ekdromoi more as an ad-hoc duty or function rather than a class; similar to the way serving as point is a role in an infantry platoon, not a separate class of soldier. Given that I’m not so ready to envision ekdromoi hoplites wearing a spolas while regular ones were some heavier cuirass.
Paul Klos

\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
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I partly aggree with Conons comment on Spollas.
But do not forget that it good idea to have some insulation between the metal and the body. Usually it was achieved with linen or leather under the metal armor. That is one reason for the existance of Spollas.
Also Mycenean frescoes show a belt with pteruges-probably leather.(Spolas?)
Interstingly the cloth belt with the pterugelike decoraton used by the Evzones of the Prsidential Guard is called spollas. See link:
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... id=4045434
Also the lilnk that I have posted on the emblems thread shows a hoplite with armor and spollas.
Just my 2 pennies worth.
Kind regards
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