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Linothorax again - Printable Version

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Linothorax again - Anonymous - 10-18-2004

Hello !<br>
<br>
Let me introduce myselfe. I am an Austrian archeologist (i.e. a celtic barbarian ) working at the Museum of celtic culture in Hallein ( www.keltenmuseum.at ) In the cemetaries on Dürrnberg (dating to the 5th-3rd century BC) there is evidence for organic armour in two warrior graves. At the moment I want to built a museum quality replica of such an (linen ?) armour for the museums display to illustrate the construction of such an armour. The exterior will be based on the pictural evidence from Glauberg/Germany (www.keltenfuerst.de/index_1.htm and www.ruadh.de/Glauberg/Gra...nne1.html) and the archeological ecidence from Dürrnberg (Metal fittings).<br>
Now I am looking for any kind of help I can get !! I have seen Matthews reconstruction of a linothorax and liked it. Has anyone else built one ? How did you solve the closing down of the armou in detail ?<br>
Any advise is welcome !!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br>
cheers<br>
Stefan<br>
P.S. Regarding to the question of material used. There is (old 19th cent.) evidence for an armour made of hamp strands from Some Tourbe- "La Gorge-Meillet"/ France (finds at the British Museum?). Is there any evidence for this material outside the "barbarian zone"? <p></p><i></i>


Linothorax! - Anonymous - 10-21-2004

Guten Tag Stefan, Wilcommen.<br>
<br>
That unfortunatley is the end of my German so i was not able to learn much from the links u posted. I am very interested in what you have there however i am an undergraduate student in Australia and have been researching the linothorax for about 18 mounths. with a view to doing my thesus on it.<br>
<br>
The evidence for how they were made is still very sketchy, i would love to see some pictures of what you have there, the finds interest me greatly as there are no recorded find of actual fabric being recovered that i have found. A few authors mention a fragment of linen 14 layers thick found in a myceanen tomb (Grave V) but i have never been able to find out where this item is.<br>
<br>
Also the metal remains would be very interesting! as again i have read mention of them but finding published works in Australia is a struggle.<br>
<br>
I too have made one like Matthew. I made mine flat however which was much easier than rolled the glue is again debatable but Herodotus makes a round about reference to animal or milk Glue (KOLA).<br>
<br>
So far i have catalouged over 270 images, gems, carvings that show the linothorax in any detail. and discovering a few interesting facts. I am almost certain that most (if not all) were double fronted.<br>
<br>
Any pictures you would like to see of mine or info, send me an email to [email protected] and i can send you some pictures direct to you.<br>
<br>
Hope to hear from you soon.<br>
<br>
Jason Hoffman <p></p><i></i>


Linothorax again - Anonymous - 03-28-2005

Guten tag!<br>
Bitte folgen sie dieser link:<br>
www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikol...lcuir.html<br>
<br>
Aber ihre antwortung auf English bitte weil mein deutsch sind schreklikich!!!! <p></p><i></i>


Re: Linothorax again - Scaevola - 06-09-2005

:?: Jason, what's your reasoning behind the statement about the fronts being double thick?


Re: Linothorax again - Jason Hoffman - 06-11-2005

I have spent almost two years researching this topic know, towards a theses, My research has revealed a lot of evidence to suggest that the linothorax wrapped around the body 1 and a half times front back and front again. I wont tell you my sources yet as i am hoping to put al this together in a book in the next 12 to 18 months, i will just say that i think the evidence i have suggests that it is conclusive proof.


Re: Linothorax again - Scaevola - 06-11-2005

Should be an interesting read. I look forward to it.


Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 06-15-2005

One question.
If some one wants his linothorax black or red, what are the most natural substances that he can use to atchieve this collour?
Any body knows or has tried?
Kind regards
Stefanos.


Re: Linothorax again - Scaevola - 06-15-2005

Black would be coal dust. Red, iron oxide.
Of course your could also just buy linen dyed that color Wink


Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 06-16-2005

Thanks, kind regards


Re: Linothorax again - Antonius Lucretius - 06-30-2005

IMHO, there was not a single type of linothorax.
Besides the very real possibility of some of them being made of leather, there are later (much later) references to a specific quality of linothorax, namely the one with which Caracalla's "Macedonian phalanx" was outfitted.
According to Dio Cassius, Caracalla, probably on a whim, decided to have his own macedonian phalanx, so he recruited fifteen thousand men and outfitted them with rawhide helmet, bronze shield, sword, pike, spear, boots and a "three ply linen cuirass".
That implies there was "one ply" and "two ply" models as well.
If we are to believe the quite accurate depictions on greek vases, most of them were of the "single ply" type, meaning they wrapped around the body only once. But several wraparounds are a definite possibility.
Another possibility is that the "three ply" description is similar to the different qualities in cashmere sweaters: the number of plies concerns in fact the thickness of the wool strand. A two ply cashmere is cheaper, obviously than a four ply cashmere.
So, the "three ply" quotes by Dio could mean that the linen used for the cuirass was of different qualities, maybe a tighter weave, maybe a double, or triple weave, if that is possible..
Any linen weaver around here to help?
Anyways. My two cents worth.. Just to get the machine moving. :wink:


Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 06-30-2005

Why would you call something made from leather a "linothorax"?


Re: Linothorax again - Praefectusclassis - 06-30-2005

How about three ply means three layers of linen? And to be obnoxious: what's the Greek word Dio uses? :wink:


Re: Linothorax again - Antonius Lucretius - 07-01-2005

Quote:Why would you call something made from leather a "linothorax"?
Good question..
However, a cuirass, or cuirasse, in french stems from the word "cuir", (leather, in english), and they were mostly made of metal..
And yes, I also thought about the three layers but I had already posted the thingie.. :roll:
And no obnoxiousness here, but me no speak no greek..
Any ancient greek speaking person around? Big Grin


Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 07-01-2005

I can read and write it (slowly and painfully) but I can't speak it or understand it when it is spoken Smile

The LINEAR B word for flax is LINARI and in classical Greek any item made from flax is called LINON.


Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 07-03-2005

Dan is right on the translation.
The obvious expalanation for linothorax is as presented by those who atempted to reconstuct it ....
BUT......
linen mixed with pine raisin gives extremely hard stuff but it is perishable.
Linen can be used over hard-boiled leather if somebody takes the pain and effort to make it and can increase the resistance of the armoring.
Linen can be used over metal if somebody wishes so.
Is there any reason to belive that the metal reinforced linothorax is only the ones depicted on the known art with the metal sewn on the outside and not one with the metal sewn on the inside?
Kind regards