Glued Linen Armour- a simple test

[Matt Lukes]

Surprise yes, but not skepticism Scott- I don't doubt that you got the results you say, it's just that I can't so easily rationalize them with my own or, indeed, with what I know about the use of and molecular nature of collagen-based adhesives. It must simply be a case of something not being quite clear- your conditions differed from mine somewhere, something wasn't quite what it seemed for one of us or some such situation. That's why I want to try again and I can report my exact conditions and see if you spot where yours differ.

Bovine and rabbit hide glue are suggested to differ in some respects- I've read the reason rabbit glue has been traditionally used to 'size' artists' canvases is because it contracts more as it dries leading to a stiffer canvas, although I can't immediatly see why there should be any obvious difference in how hygroscopic either is- in fact, it's suggested rabbit glue's hygroscopic nature is the cause of cracking on so many old paintings. The collagen and elastin molecules themselves don't seem to differ among different mammals- perhaps some variance in proportions exists, but again that seems unlikely to affect the water-absorbancy.

But the fact that drying returned a natural glue object back to its original state is really no surprise- nothing changes molecularly save the water content, so it should be the same. And PVA changes as it dries initially- it can't be re-solubilized- so getting wet subsequently means it's just wet, like ceramic or concrete can get wet and dry without being affected.

And we can agree at least on one aspect- my experience with using hide glue is the same with respect to layered linen being stiff yet flexible.

[PMBardunias]

Are any of you familiar with the modern use of what are called "shear thickening fluids" in textile body armor? Basically these are liquids that act like solids when perturbed quickly. This can be as simple as a mixture of starch and water- try it with some corn starch, diluted to a relatively viscous mixture. It gets hard momentarily when struck or stirred. I came across some research on the benefit of applying this to textiles to protect against stabbing in modern armors (email me for the paper).

Stab resistance of shear thickening fluid (STF)-treated fabrics
Composites Science and Technology, Volume 67, Issues 3-4, March 2007, Pages 565-578
M.J. Decker, C.J. Halbach, C.H. Nam, N.J. Wagner, E.D. Wetzel

If this applies to the T-Y corselet, I don't know. But it would be interesting to test if someone had authentic line laying about and some starch. Because it is speed dependant, it would work better for anti-arrow armor. There would be obvious implications if the T-Y were specifically good at stopping arrows and less so for slower weapons.

[Matt Lukes]

Yeah, they're what're collectively known as 'Non-Newtonian Fluids'- but the 'fluid' is the key here- if the modern use is treated fabrics, it's a form that doesn't lose its solvent or is protected somehow (outer coating, or sealed carrier, etc.). It doesn't sound like something that could ever be considered to have been thought of for ancient armor applications...

[PMBardunias]

but the 'fluid' is the key here- if the modern use is treated fabrics, it's a form that doesn't lose its solvent or is protected somehow (outer coating, or sealed carrier, etc.

or becomes re-wetted when you sweat through it?

Edit: I'm reading a paper in front of me right now:

After sonication for about 1 h, the mixture was used to soak 12 layers of Kevlar fabric cut in dimensions of 30.48×38.10 cm2. To impregnate the fabric, the sonicated mixture and the layers of fabric were placed in a plastic bag and sealed. After approximately 15 min of soaking, individual fabric layers were removed and laid flat in a furnace at 75 °C. Once the layers were dried they were ready for spike tests.

So maybe dry works just as well.

[Matt Lukes]

Very odd- it must not be the usual then since that is a fluid that becomes solid-like when force is applied (corn starch in water is indeed a good example, likewise is custard). I presume the paper doesn't identify the material exactly? Dried corn starch isn't going to do it for sure...

[PMBardunias]

I presume the paper doesn't identify the material exactly? Dried corn starch isn't going to do it for sure...

I haven't had time to really get into the paper yet, but it appears that the trick is binding nanoscale silicon particles to the kevlar fibres. This may sound beyond the 5th c greeks, and perhaps is was, but they had access to fine alkali clays that perhaps could be used to do something along these lines with more primative materials. Come to think of it, doesn't whiteware pottery become popular within a few decades of the popularity of the T-Y corselet? It would explain the white T-Y.

This is out of my little pool of knowledge, but one of the aythors is only one county over from me, so I'll see if he has an opinion and let you know.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Well,doesn anybody remeber if there is a reference of linen being better against arrows? Something to do with Iphicrates and the linen thorakes he used to re equip his troops? Or am i terribly mixing different stories? mmm,i'm sure if Iphicrates ever used linen thorakes this would have been mentioned in our threads. But who was it...a hellenistic general that re equipped his troops with linen armour???
More confused and confusing than any help in the discussion,sorry!
Khairete
Giannis

[Sean Manning]

Well,doesn anybody remeber if there is a reference of linen being better against arrows? Something to do with Iphicrates and the linen thorakes he used to re equip his troops? Or am i terribly mixing different stories? mmm,i'm sure if Iphicrates ever used linen thorakes this would have been mentioned in our threads. But who was it...a hellenistic general that re equipped his troops with linen armour???
More confused and confusing than any help in the discussion,sorry!
Khairete
Giannis

I think Cornelius Nepos says that Iphicraphes had his men use linen armour instead of bronze. But of course Nepos is a late source, and Iphicrates might have been influenced by Egyptian practice.

[rocktupac]

I think Cornelius Nepos says that Iphicraphes had his men use linen armour instead of bronze. But of course Nepos is a late source, and Iphicrates might have been influenced by Egyptian practice.

I find it odd that we pay close attention to authors like Polybius, Frontinus or Polyaenus, who wrote just before or shortly after Cornelius Nepos, but conclusively reject writers like Cornelius Nepos because he is deemed as 'late'.

[Paullus Scipio]

Scott wrote:

I find it odd that we pay close attention to authors like Polybius, Frontinus or Polyaenus, who wrote just before or shortly after Cornelius Nepos, but conclusively reject writers like Cornelius Nepos because he is deemed as 'late'.

All these authors must be examined critically, and a number of factors taken into account when attempting to assess their accuracy. For example Polybius (writing c.160 BC) experienced some of the events he wrote about, and spoke to witnesses a generation before about others, as well as having written works to consult. We must be careful with collections of stratagems by those such as Frontinus (late 1st C AD) or Polyaenas (late 2nd C AD), for inevitably some of their sources, taken from all over the place, will be good and some bad.
We do not 'reject' Nepos (late 1st C BC) at all, and certainly not because he is "late". We may doubt what he wrote about Iphicrates however. Compare our two sources, Nepos and Diodorus, writing both in the 1st C BC.

Cornelius Nepos' Life of Iphikrates, 1
"For example, he changed the arms of the infantry. While before he became commander they used very large shields (maximus clipeis), short spears (brevibus hastis) and little swords (minutis gladius), he on the contrary exchanged peltae for the round ones (peltam pro parma fecit), for which reason the infantry have since been called peltasts, in order that the soldiers might move and charge more easily when less burdened. He doubled the length of the spear and increased that of the swords; he changed the character of their armour (loricarum), giving them linen in place of bronze or chain armour (pro sertis atquae linteas dedit). In that way he made the soldiers more active; for while he diminished the weight of their armour, he contrived to protect their bodies equally well without overloading them".

Diodoros 15.44 records the following:

"Hence we are told, after he had acquired his long experience of military operations in the Persian War, he devised many improvements in the tools of war, devoting himself especially to the matter of arms.1 For instance, the Greeks were using shields which were large (megalais aspisi) and consequently difficult to handle; these he discarded and made small oval ones (peltas summetrous) of moderate size, thus successfully achieving both objects, to furnish the body with adequate cover and to enable the user of the small shield, on account of its lightness, to be completely free in his movements. After a trial of the new shield its easy manipulation secured its adoption, and the infantry who had formerly been called "hoplites" (hoplitai) because of their heavy shield (aspidon), then had their name changed to "peltasts" (peltastai) from the light pelta they carried. As regards spear (doratos) and sword (xiphous), he made changes in the contrary direction: namely, he increased the length of the spears by half, and made the swords almost twice as long. The actual use of these arms confirmed the initial test and from the success of the experiment won great fame for the inventive genius of the general. He made soldiers' boots that were easy to untie and light and they continue to this day to be called "Iphicratids" after him.2 He also introduced many other useful improvements into warfare, but it would be tedious to write about them".3
(translations courtesy Luke Ueda-Sarson's site on Iphicrates reforms - recommended reading)

In comparing the two, one might conclude they were drawing on the same or a similar source....but Nepos makes some glaring careless errors. He speaks of 'doubling' the length of the spears i.e. from 8ft or so to 16 ft, and such a weapon needed two hands, as the Macedonian 'sarissa shows, whereas Diodorus talks of 12 ft spears, which is just about the maximum that can be handled single-handedly. Then he apparently throws in an anachronistic detail - not mentioned in Diodorus' account and hence likely to be Nepos' "invention". He refers to "chain armour"/mail, which was the common equipment in his own day of heavy Infantry, but which didn't exist in Iphicrates day, 250 years earlier, being replaced by 'linen' armour! It is this clear anachronistic error which makes Nepos' accuracy doubtful.

[Kineas]

Fascinating stuff, but inundation and so on is not the same as wearing the armor in changing weather and temperature conditions. Static testing cannot provide much evidence--why not make a set and wear it camping for a week? And provide photos!

I make this caveat because I suspect that layers of linen placed under constant flexing pressure AND wet will have a different behavior.

Of course, it so seldom rains in Greece...

[rocktupac]

In comparing the two, one might conclude they were drawing on the same or a similar source....but Nepos makes some glaring careless errors. He speaks of 'doubling' the length of the spears i.e. from 8ft or so to 16 ft, and such a weapon needed two hands, as the Macedonian 'sarissa shows, whereas Diodorus talks of 12 ft spears, which is just about the maximum that can be handled single-handedly. Then he apparently throws in an anachronistic detail - not mentioned in Diodorus' account and hence likely to be Nepos' "invention". He refers to "chain armour"/mail, which was the common equipment in his own day of heavy Infantry, but which didn't exist in Iphicrates day, 250 years earlier, being replaced by 'linen' armour! It is this clear anachronistic error which makes Nepos' accuracy doubtful.

Diodorus does mention that Iphicrates made "many other useful improvements into warfare" but finds that "it would be tedious to write about them." This could mean a number of things and doesn't contradict Cornelius Nepos, even if he does misunderstand a few things. Also, Diodorus's words do not rule out linen armor. Should we disregard all of Cornelius Nepos, or other writers, that allow a slight misunderstanding into their texts? Should we be doubtful of Herodotus's accuracy because of his gold-digging ants or dog-headed men, or is he still considered a highly important and authoritative historian?

[rocktupac]

Fascinating stuff, but inundation and so on is not the same as wearing the armor in changing weather and temperature conditions. Static testing cannot provide much evidence--why not make a set and wear it camping for a week? And provide photos!

I make this caveat because I suspect that layers of linen placed under constant flexing pressure AND wet will have a different behavior.

Of course, it so seldom rains in Greece...

My guess is that when on the march an army did not necessarily wear the armor, and that it was storied somewhere protected only to be removed from their holdings and worn when battle was immanent. Since Greek armies rarely marched far overland, transportation of the armor or movement while wearing the armor would not be a problem. And as you said, it seldom rains in Greece, so this too would not pose major problems. How many accounts do we have of Greeks fighting in the rain anyways?

Where we have a lot of information concerning troop movement and armor getting wet is from the campaign of Alexander. And we shall see in the end, in the muggiest of conditions where cloth armor would not be allowed to dry (i.e. in India), that Alexander receives a new supply of armor and orders that the old armor be burned (Curt. 9.3.22). On a side note, there are bits of evidence that point to Alexander, and most likely his troops, wearing linen armor: Alexander wears a linen corselet before the battle of Gaugamela (Plutarch 'Alex.' 32); Alexander can be seen wearing Type IV armor on the 'Alexander Mosaic'; Macedonian soldiers can be seen wearing Type IV armor on the 'Alexander Sarcophagus'; the iron Type IV cuirass from Vergina (I am taking this to be a non-functional celebratory piece, most likely worn while parading); the example of the Roman emperor Caracalla wearing a linen corselet in emulation of Alexander (Cassius Dio 78.7.1-2). When these are pieced together it becomes very convincing in my opinion.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

On Philips's iron cuirass,when we visited Vergina with Athanasios Porporis he observed that although the gold decoration was intact everywhere as if it was new,the only place where it was a bit ruined was the top of the left shoulder guard,exactly the place where it would carry an aspis. If such damage could have been inflicted in parade,i don't know.
Khaire
Giannis

[rocktupac]

On Philips's iron cuirass,when we visited Vergina with Athanasios Porporis he observed that although the gold decoration was intact everywhere as if it was new,the only place where it was a bit ruined was the top of the left shoulder guard,exactly the place where it would carry an aspis. If such damage could have been inflicted in parade,i don't know.
Khaire
Giannis

The damage could have been incurred any number of ways, including carrying an ornamental aspis while on parade. A shield was found in the Vergina tomb that perfectly fits the bill. Considering the condition the cuirass was found in I highly doubt the worn down edge was due to aspis-wear. (See images below of cuirass and shield)