Glued Linen Armour- a simple test

[hoplite14gr]

Stoles "uniforms" and the "matching cloacks" are foo dfor thought.
Also "skytos" is tanned leather. Interesting relation with scutum and even today in the mountainous villagea clothes are called "Skoytia".
Just my two pennies worth.
Kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

Ruben wrote:

This is clearly a reference to a Greek city with Greek citizens and foreigners (likely also other Greeks, for it's hard to imagine significant numbers of non-Greeks attending a Greek public holiday around the time of Aeneas' writing, or their embroilment in such a scheme). I'm not sure if this episode has been linked with any particular one known from the histories, but many of the anecdotes Aeneas gives come from between 400 and 360 BC, with the majority coming from recent history for him (mostly the 360's). Also probably one of the earliest uses of "hopla" for shields here.

What are some thoughts? Is this new or am I just going crazy?

This is indeed new, at least to me. A note of caution though. "Greek City" could easily refer to a city in Anatolia,( or even Sicily or Italy) and we know from Xenophon that linen thorakes certainly existed in Anatolia.....it is indeed a pity that the reference is so vague, and not to a specific place. All we can say with certainty is that Aeneas Tacticus had heard of linen thorakes......

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Another mention of linen by Herodotus belongs to foreign troops,the Assyrians:

The Assyrians in the army wore on their heads helmets of twisted bronze made in an outlandish fashion not easy to describe. They carried shields and spears and daggers of Egyptian fashion, and also wooden clubs studded with iron, and they wore linen breastplates. They are called by the Greeks Syrians, but the foreigners called them Assyrians. With them were the Chaldeans. Their commander was Otaspes son of Artachaees. (Hdt. 7.63.1)

Note that Herodotus doesn't get in the trouble of explaining their form,like he did for their bronze helmets and like Xenophon about the Chalybes in the Anabasis. Is this indication that they were nothing strange but had the t & y form known by Anatolians and Persians? Who knows!
Khairete
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

......and in that same section of Herodotus, IIRC, there is another Persian contingent who wear linen body-armour....(Phoenician marines?)

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I'm in a real hurry to check for the Phenicians at the moment,but i just came accross this:

Ehem...a spolas?

[MeinPanzer]

This is indeed new, at least to me. A note of caution though. "Greek City" could easily refer to a city in Anatolia,( or even Sicily or Italy) and we know from Xenophon that linen thorakes certainly existed in Anatolia.....it is indeed a pity that the reference is so vague, and not to a specific place. All we can say with certainty is that Aeneas Tacticus had heard of linen thorakes......

Even if this reference is to a polis in Ionia, these would be Ionian Greeks using linen cuirasses, and not native Anatolians. That means that we can say more than just that Aeneas had heard of linen thorakes - that means that Greeks somewhere in a Greek city were using them. I think this is a case where a close reading of secondary literature on Aeneas would be fruitful.

[MeinPanzer]

I'm in a real hurry to check for the Phenicians at the moment,but i just came accross this:

Ehem...a spolas?

Image isn't showing up for me...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Sorry,this must be because i forgot to attach it :oops:

[rocktupac]

Is Penthesilea wearing a spolas? It is certainly a hide hung from the shoulders...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

This could well be a Lybian spolas (???????????? ?????)

[Mythos_Ruler]

Question. Why must we assume that the linen was "glued"? Could not the edges of the layers of linen been stitched and the layers allowed to "float" freely between each other?

[Paralus]

Question. Why must we assume that the linen was "glued"? Could not the edges of the layers of linen been stitched and the layers allowed to "float" freely between each other?

Is it not obvious? We assume because we do not know.

That does not exclude palisaded positions defended unto death and supported by any amount of indirect or circumstantial evidence. The reaction to Ruben’s post is typical: linen thorakes were not used by Greeks and so this “evidence” must be marginalised in some fashion. It is not to be accepted at face value.

It is most entertaining.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Question. Why must we assume that the linen was "glued"? Could not the edges of the layers of linen been stitched and the layers allowed to "float" freely between each other?

Is it not obvious? We assume because we do not know.

That does not exclude palisaded positions defended unto death and supported by any amount of indirect or circumstantial evidence. The reaction to Ruben’s post is typical: linen thorakes were not used by Greeks and so this “evidence” must be marginalised in some fashion. It is not to be accepted at face value.

It is most entertaining.

I think what I was doing was offering another angle over which to fight. I am wondering about the efficacy of allowing the linen layers "breathing room" and flexibility by simply stitching the edges of the layers instead of gluing the whole thing together to make a hard shell. So the linen layers need to be "hard" in order to be effective against arrows and piercing blows? If not, then they may need not be glued at all.

[Paralus]

I believe that it is the tightly packed layers - whether stitched or glued - that do the job. The physics being the spreading and absorbtion of the energy of the "missile" or sword impact.

Interestingly, Paul B sent me a paper on the "Vatican Aspis" that, from recollection, stated that glue was used in the wooden construction. I don't have access to it at the office but, if correct, wouldn't a "delaminating" aspis be worse than a delaminating cuirass?!

[Paullus Scipio]

Paralus wrote:

Interestingly, Paul B sent me a paper on the "Vatican Aspis" that, from recollection, stated that glue was used in the wooden construction. I don't have access to it at the office but, if correct, wouldn't a "delaminating" aspis be worse than a delaminating cuirass?!

In the case of the vatican aspis in question, it was made of thick boards glued edge to edge, then hollowed out on a large horizontal lathe. By Philip of Macedon's time, in the pursuit of lightness it appears from an example from Olynthus that laminated 'plywood' strips very similar to the roman scutum construction was in use.