"National Roman Legion"

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

true, national in this case would be wrong.

IMPERIAL however!!!!!

would be correct if you look at the make-up of the ancient legions!!

M.VIB.M.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

true, national in this case would be wrong.

IMPERIAL however!!!!!

would be correct if you look at the make-up of the ancient legions!!

M.VIB.M.

As long as its 'Imperial' in name and 'Senatorial' in decision making I have no problems. The problem, as usual, is when too much power is put into the hands of one person or group. As we all know, power corrutps.

[Hibernicus]

Dan once said that the only thing he gets from Deepeeka is first crack at the new gear he worked on and at cost.

[Robert]

Wow, that was a long thread to read. Now, I don't know Dan personally, but have had some pleasant e-mail conversations with him when we launched the Park idee. But let's leave him and others out of it.

After reading all and giving it a bit of thought, what stikes me is that it would make some sense for each group to see if they could at least put a contubernia together, lock, stock and barrel (meaning good tent and the likes). As a group grows, a second contubernia could be started. It is not so much the whole issue of HAVING to participate in a National Legion, as BEING ABLE TO. Most reenactors I have met have impressions around end first century, beginning second. There is a lot of common ground between us all, there is more that binds than devides! The public we want to entertain and educate are far less critical, a simple thing as a uniform shield makes a ragged bunch spanning (to our eye) over a century of Roman history, look like personification of the Roman legion come to life. I saw this happen at Xanten, 60 Romans working together made up quite a show!! Shields ordered in quantity are dead cheap, especialy if they are all the same, plywood fabrication and spray painted using templates. Perhaps this is the one and only thing a National Legion should have, a pickup truck full of shields, a large box full of uniform red crests and hooks and three standards. For the big event, all groups leave theirs stuck in front of their tents drawn up in Roman military precision, don the crests and presto, the Legion arises and marches as one. If you want to specialise, no problem, have archers and cavalry unite in groups around the formation.

I was very taken in with the Call on Batavians by Adrian, sharing shield designs and knowledge to all who wanted to accurately display late first century Batavian aux. It makes it far easier to put together a larger band of aux at a show, even a smallish one.

Maybe the step from small bands of individuals to one large unit is to great a leap, but perhaps we could explore and see if a series of smaller steps wouldn't bring us closer together?

PS Does anyone have some rude Latin marching tunes to go with Dex, Dex, Dex, Sin, Dex :lol:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I was there when we had a full centuria in Kirby Hall, as was Dan, and it was ONE MAGNIFICENT sight! to have been part of that display was an awe inspiring experience.

Of course such a thing can be repeated. but lets first start with a few centuriae...

then see where we can end up.

M.VIB.M.

[Hibernicus]

But let's leave him and others out of it.

This latest concept of a National Legion for the USA is Dan's idea, top to bottom. It's his LEGIO XIV that others are welcome to participate with (without actually joining) using the LEG XIV scutum at an annual or biannual or triannual event

....make some sense for each group to see if they could at least put a contubernia together, ....As a group grows, a second contubernia could be started. ....

This is how Legio IX is organized across the US, has been for quite some time! Each local Chapter is given a CONTUBERNIUM designation within a "regional" CENTURIA. When a region puts enough CONTUBERNIUMs plus members together they earn an OPTIO; more CONTs and more MILITES and they earn a CENTURIO.

We had to postpone our National Gathering for 2008 and are looking at scheduling it for FEB 2009 near Tucson AZ. The 2010 Gathering is tentatively scheduled to be held in Texas. These will be week long events.

[Marcus Mummius]

I was there when we had a full centuria in Kirby Hall, as was Dan, and it was ONE MAGNIFICENT sight! to have been part of that display was an awe inspiring experience.

Of course such a thing can be repeated. but lets first start with a few centuriae...

then see where we can end up.

M.VIB.M.

In Marle there were two early Imperial centuries acting together and for the next edition they aim to get at least three on the field. It can be done and it's a fantastic experience to participate!
The people at the park earned money too so everyone is happy!

[Robert]

Hi Hib! You were "others" :lol: You have explained about Legio IX before in a rather heated exchange in which I remember likening your lot to "a bikers club in drags (or segs?)" :wink: . Since then, I have learned a few things more and wouldn't put it that way again, but the fact remains that most groups are pretty allergic to "must do's and don'ts".
So yes, credit to Dan for his thoughts but no, I feel a totaly new legion with it's own standard should be a National legion. Anyway, there could be a European legion as well. X Gemina sprang to mind, but that one also excists in Holland (although they split up) and maybe elswere. Perhaps it is an idea to make the National Legion a Vexillatio, like the one guarding the Germania Inferior border after the Tenth was pulled out (Trajan times). That was composed of different units from different legions for a sole purpose, so there are similarities here in history.

[jkaler48]

I am suggesting at this point that the interested parties attempt to
set up and hold a web conference on the matter inviting each existing Legion to have one member participate to work on and vote on a constitution for a National Legion. If they decide they can elect officials, board of directors or even a Caesar if they like. I am IN FAVOR of the idea but it is pointless to try to form a National Legion without the cooperation of and input from the majority of existing groups. Dan has a good idea, has a great knowledge base, has a couple of enthusiastic supporters but needs more than that to get the thing going. If I have any beef with Dan it is that I like his idea but not it's lack of progress attracting support from the existing reenactment groups. I would like to see a National Legion organization and Dan SHOULD be involved. Everyone should try to work work with everyone else including Dan to see what can be worked out. So what if he made some people mad SO DID THE FOUNDING FATHERS AT THE US CONSTITUTION CONVENTION and they still managed to work out fair compromises and a Constitution that is admired the world over today.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

and a Constitution that is admired the world over today.


except for the present day US government.

But that aside...

M.VIB.M.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

I am also in favour of the idea, despite the fact I do not live in the US. As far as standardisation goes, I think it would be best left solely for the event itself and not enforced after that - each group should be able to display with whatever emblem, colour and so on as they see fit.

The only problem I have is when a big group gets together, forces down their own views upon others, on the grounds they have a right to as their 'leader' has put a lot into the whatever endeavour they are going though. I have seen it time and time again, in many different spheres of interest, and so the warning is given.

[Magnus]

A couple main points...

Yuri...a main event every 3-4 years would be fantastic...but N. America is just soooo huge. It's costly now to travel beyond an 8 hour trip. To the point where it is cost prohibitive. And gas prices wont' be going down anytime soon.

The main thing (adressing this to all) that I dislike about this very topic is that 90% of ALL reenactment groups in N. America comprise of say 10-15 people on paper, and 5 or so guys who come out all the time. On paper I have over a full contubernium, but to get everyone out at an event due to other commitments is very hard. Add to that an event which is a thousand miles/km away and that number will continue to shrink.

So...based on the MASSIVE logistical problem of getting all these groups together...literally makes it extremely probable that a national legion will not be anything more than a website with a few satelite groups.

Second...as Yuri mentioned standardization usually just "happens" at an event. I've yet to see any issues. So if things aren't broke, why fix them?

If that's the case, what advantages are there for a national legion in the first place? If we all get along and play well as mixed units...why switch?

This just all seems a massive exercise in redundancy. Really, we should be getting on the same page in terms of tactics for needlefelt and non-combat demos. We also need a set of drill commands that are NOT adapted from modern military ones (too many ex-soldiers in roman reenacting), and ones that avoid any modern militarisms like:

1. precautionary and executive words of command
2. calling things on the left foot when executing a movement
3. using modern measurements for paces
4. The idea that crisp drill movements relies entirely on movements made in unison.

That's my thoughts on the matter...I play well with others and everything works great as it is. I like seeing other shield patterns, tunic colours and vexillations. I take pride in my current unit identity but enjoy being part of a larger interest as well. This way I can have my cake and eat it too.

[MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS]

A couple main points...

Yuri...a main event every 3-4 years would be fantastic...but N. America is just soooo huge. It's costly now to travel beyond an 8 hour trip. To the point where it is cost prohibitive. And gas prices wont' be going down anytime soon.

The main thing (adressing this to all) that I dislike about this very topic is that 90% of ALL reenactment groups in N. America comprise of say 10-15 people on paper, and 5 or so guys who come out all the time. On paper I have over a full contubernium, but to get everyone out at an event due to other commitments is very hard. Add to that an event which is a thousand miles/km away and that number will continue to shrink.

So...based on the MASSIVE logistical problem of getting all these groups together...literally makes it extremely probable that a national legion will not be anything more than a website with a few satelite groups.

Second...as Yuri mentioned standardization usually just "happens" at an event. I've yet to see any issues. So if things aren't broke, why fix them?

If that's the case, what advantages are there for a national legion in the first place? If we all get along and play well as mixed units...why switch?

This just all seems a massive exercise in redundancy.

A massive logistical problem present; it does. But then so did besieging Alesia, subduing Britannia, and forging an empire of thousands of miles.... ON FOOT! Im sure wherever our beloved romans are, they are watching us with shame, with our flying behemoths, petrol consuming cars and speed trains, and yet unable to converge at a single point, even if only once between Olypics. Nothing worth doing comes easily!

All inspirational babble aside, I think it would be possible to achieve if all the interested parties (read groups) put the effort into it, agreed on a date, and counted up all those willing (read able to afford) such an expensive endeavour.

As Matt has said, many groups do not even have 20 people on paper. I think we could not get 5000 if all re-enactments groups in the world came together. But still, 300 is still a respectable number, and anything larger than the usual 20-30 would be awesome!

All that said, I find it hard to believe a single individual could achieve this through willpower alone. I think cooperation, patience, diplomacy and perseverence are the key qualities needed to make this work. From what I have read, observed and learned from experience, the 'Borg' approach of assimilation and ''fly our banners or don't fly at all'' mentality is not the way to go.

[Praefectusclassis]

"Boooooom-------splasshhhhh"

That was a shot across the bow for that unnecessary political statement HJ. The next time will get you a forced vacation from RAT.

[texascavtrooper]

Magnus\\n[quote]


(too many ex-soldiers in roman reenacting),

quote] hock: :x (
I have one question for you. Have you ever been in the Army? Well I am and if you have been you will understand how offensive your remark about to many ex-soldiers is! :x x evil: I have been reenacting for 22years long before the Army. When you are train in marching like in the army things become second nature and there fore hard to break. Instead of insulting Veterans why not try and help them. I want to do the best I can when I do an impression. It was very hard for me to learn the drill for my American rev-war impression. I had to learn German and the correct movements. I hope you will understand why your remark was so insulting.
I hope you have a good day.
SGT Bryan Fitch
US Army, Iraq