Musculata Images

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Here are a few photos of a Musculata statue from the Roman town of Ségobriga in Spain.
Whether or not this was emperor related cannot be said because the head is missing.
What it does show however is a metal musculata, with thick sewn linen pteryges stitched in a comparable manner you would have in Kendo-Armour Tare.(tare, the apron protecting the groin), of which i have included an image.

























Kendo:

[Dan Howard]

If I interpret Proximus' question correctly, he has already seen the scupltural evidence. He is asking for surviving physical examples of decorated musculata. The confusion arises from a definition of "primary source" that is too narrow.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Does not matter that much, there are ample examples of bronze musculata found, not from the Imperial period but that does not say they were not used.

M.VIB.M.

[Dan Howard]

"bronze" does not equal "decorated"

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Then he should have renamed this thread into pictures of REAL musculata which were found.

M.VIB.M.

[Doc]

There was supposed to be a real musculata albeit not decorated from the imperial period. It was in D'Amato's book dated between the 1st - 3rd C AD. However, if you look closely at the caption next to the armor in the picture D'Amato used, it reads 3-4th BC (I think, maybe it's even later date). Therefore, we still do not have any imperial age musculata armors. Nonethless, given the number of sculptures some of which are not only emperors, I do not think its use up and vanished.

As far as I know, there have none been found with decoration. This would seem to suggest that, at least for the emperor armors, that they were made from precious metals and smelt down once that particular emperor had died, in one form or another.

[Proximus]

Well, Sir Dan Howard interpreted me correctly :

I actualy search after decorated real musculata. I supposed we have no evidence of them because all we have are statues.

Actualy I have a project of reconstitution of plausible 1/6 action figure of an Emperor with musculata but for now I do not know if I have to use a bronze musculata without decoration or a musculata with decorations and in metal-like or leather like.

Actualy, we can't prove leather musculata existed, but we can't prove decorated musculata existed either, at least if I am not wrong about the lack of real decorated musculata archeological finds.

We can't prove they did not exist but it is not a logical way to think in history (and in all sciences...). So...

[Doc]

Proximus,

It is true what you have said in that we do not have actual decorated musculata finds. However, I would be certain that if so many statues have decorated musculatas and many times over the same sort of images, then I would think that there is truth in that they existed. There are many statues with non-decorated musculatas. I have a non-decoated musculata only because I am using it for a centurio impression. Had I wanted to portray an emperor I would not bat an eye over the decoration. Who knows, other officers may have had decorations (including centurions) and it was not limited to only the emperors. I believe that there is an image of Trajan on his column with a non-decorated musulata but there are images of him with a decorated musculata.

I'd say that if you really have your heart set on a decorated musculata, go for it. In my opinion it cannot be wrong.

Of course the question remains do you beat out the figures or apply them. Some of these statues show insane relief so one must question if this is artistic lisence or application. The Romans could very well beat out high relief figures but I do not know if they would be on an armor that high (I think it's a musculata on Hadrian where the figures are ridiculously high) but who knows.

If you are looking to be 100% certain just go with the evidence: musculata with no decoration. If you have one made in brass or bronze, you can always have figures retrofitted onto it if evidence comes to light or if you change your mind at some point and just want to add certain images.

[john roberts]

Some of the gladiator helmets from Pompeii are decorated in high relief - almost full-relief in fact, so it could be done.

[Doc]

It is correct that there are gladiator pieces that are really high in relief almost to the point that the person is coming out of the piece.

So I guess that even the Hadrian statue would be possible with such relief.

[Proximus]

Thank you for the answers !

In fact, this is what I think (Not historicaly relevent, just theories)

I think decorations in musculata are artistical licences. Actualy, it seems to me (I may be wrong...) they comes on statues at the time emperors became "gods" or half gods or "sons of gods".

And it seems to me (I may be wrong too, and do not hesitate to show me my errors if you have exemples !) there are only statues of gods with decorated musculata, in Roman or Ancient Greece world.

My theories are the decorated musculata are just to illustrate the "divine" side of the one who is bearing it.

This theorie is nor right nor wrong (until you come with an illustration of a representation of a living man who had no divine pretention, such as a senator or any other aristocrat, and/or where the musculata is not a trophy), but the fact it seems plausible to me make the balance lean toward the side of the "no proof of existence". The motivation of the high number of realisation looks clear to me.

In fact I would give my left hand (not my right hand, heh not that far ! :p) to find a real decorated musculata in my garden, 'cause I think it is one of the most esthetic armor of all times, but as far as I know, there are no evidences...

Nor there is written description of it. ("and his all mighty shining heavily decorated armor, with two victory symetricaly disposed above a serie of courageous soldier...")

A big thanks for the advices by the way and I hope my words will help the reflection !

[Dan Howard]

Don't we have examples of helmets that have been pretty heavily decorated? If you combine this with sculptural evidence I think it is pretty safe to conclude that some wealthy individuals wore decorated armour. Whether it was intended for combat is a different issue.

[Doc]

Proximus,

I see your argument but I would have to say that I do not think that decorated armor was only artistic. As Dan pointed out, how about helmets with decoration attested to by sculpture and real evidence?

As mentioned previously, gladiator helemts are highly decorative. Certain gladiators, as you know, also had a pectoral device which had relief figures beaten out.

Just because a decorative musculata has not been found does not suggest that they did not exist. It could be artistic lisence if you had one or two. However, when there are so many sculptures all showing similar depictions, it suggests that there is some truth.

Besides, a musculata from the imperial period has yet to be found. All the ones in existence are usually 5th - 3rd C BC albeit they do not have any relief figures. They are mostly from Greece and Southern Italy. I know because there are several at the Metropolitan museum in NYC.

Yet, everyone who portrays an elite officer of the 1stC AD, uses a musculata even though all the musculatas we have are way before this period. Using your philosophy, it is unlikely that the Romans had musculata because we only have statues of men wearing them but no actual armors have been found.

[Proximus]

Indeed ! The thing is, in the other side, if we read too mutch the statues, we could add hoplites 3rd century AD considering the high number of hoplites representations.

I know artistic licence is not the answer at everything and I do not discute the fact it is possible or not.

But one thing I know with roman is they were able to do a lot of things. But what they wear was ruled by a code, by social codes and "divine" codes. Colors to distinguish themselves, Laurel to be protected as a civilian, etc. If a roman man has the money to wear anything, he could do it but would he have done it ?

As I said I am not against the facts and against decorated musculata, but "there is no proof it does not exist" is not an answer and sadly for now all we have are suppositions.

I have no problem to base myself on supposition but it is less solid than a lot of other archeological find !

Regards and good health !

Edit : I would like ro add something if I may :

I think there is a big difference with undecorated musculata : undecorated musculata were found in greece, orient, etruscan and samitians zones (amongnst other sites) so it seems to me the representations refer to existing pieces and it seems reasonable to think thoses pieces were used by romans. All we have to do is to find the years of use if it is possible one day. With decorated musculata, we have too accept they existed despite the lack of pieces and,the fact than any previous representations were gods (the most famous is the statue of Athenia Polias), and then propose roman emperor used them.

Let me be clear : my opinion is not a tread to anyone who wish to represent emperor with d.musc., but a personnal add to the thinking and personal way to not allowing me to conclude too quickly.

[Doc]

Gregory,

"If a roman man has the money to wear anything, he could do it but would he have done it ?"

I would have to say yes to show it off. During the Roman period the rich and shamless if they had it would flaunt it.

It is true that there is a difference in the record with respect to undecorated and decorated musculata. However, keep in mind that something that an emperor would wear was possibly made from precious metal. If this were the case and one were to condiser the number of emperors vs the number of soldiers, I would be hard pressed to think that an armor of that quality and nature would come down to us so easily.

I too do not put absolute faith in artistic representations but remember that what the sculptor did back then was what cameras and photoshop do for us today. We too in the modern world take liberties interpreting and representing things the way we want to see them. Yet, it does not make them less real.