Musculata Images

[Sulla]

This statue seems to show painted designs and more acstract than what we see on the ones with carved reliefs. I wonder if the statues with musculta that were smooth were painted.
http://picasaweb.google.com/laurent.daud...4599785266

[Sulla]

Its also interesting the symbols painted on it resemble the ones from the Notitia Dignitatum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notitia_Dignitatum

[Robert Vermaat]

Its also interesting the symbols painted on it resemble the ones from the Notitia Dignitatum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notitia_Dignitatum

Which symbols are you referring to? I see roundels with floral decorations on the musculata, but I'm not sure which ND scutum decorations would resemble these?

[Sulla]

Thats what I ment the stylized flowers.

[Robert Vermaat]

Yes, but which ND shield decorations do they resemble in your opinion?

[Sulla]

The ones on the bottom here. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...itum_4.jpg and one on the top of the other image on the page. Not really close I admit Interestingly there are flowers from pompii that are closer shield decorations. http://www.flickr.com/photos/78889382@N00/241560740/ Any way I like designs and seeing how they are used. Also it also interests me there are a limited amount of basic styles so they are used many time for many things.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/lov...aa082c.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v57vhA4LNE4/S5LCMv...BE/363.JPG

http://classics.uc.edu/troy/grbpottery/i...2334-1.jpg

[Alexand96]

This statue seems to show painted designs and more acstract than what we see on the ones with carved reliefs. I wonder if the statues with musculta that were smooth were painted.
picasaweb.google.com/laurent.daudelin/Br...#5175091164599785266

Interesting idea Sulla, however, I would bet that if this statue is a representation of a real set of armor that emperor Nero wore, it would be inlaid with precious stones...and perhaps painted as well. The floral patterns seem to suggest to me (granted I am no expert) that these designs would be constructed as part of the cuirass itself...similar to the relief designs that are depicted on many of the musculata. Granted, I am no expert...but what I do know about Nero was that he wasn't exactly the thrifty type.

Alexander

[ValentinianVictrix]

If you look at the link I put up to the base of the Column of Arcadius you can see the Guard Infantry, the ones with the large round shields, have some interesting designs on them. Some fragments of the Column of Arcadius depict infantry with round shields that have a raised Chi-Rho symbol on them.

[Nathan Ross]

Just in case anyone gets the idea that musculata were only worn by senior officers, or were purely decorative and not worn in battle, here's Optio Aelius Septimus, c.173AD:



(interesting helmet too, I'd say...)mile:

[Alexand96]

Nathan,

Not that I don't think its possible that that's a musculata, do you think it could be hamata instead? To be honest, I don't think I can distinguish between the two in this depiction. But yeah...looking at the helmet, my first reaction is that he looks like a Conquistador haha.

[ValentinianVictrix]

This is something I've pondered on as there are a number of Late Roman depictions of infantry and cavalry wearing this type of helmet. A classic example is on page 291 of Vol 2 of The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare.

YOu can see a number of panels with infantry wearing this type of helmet by googling basilica di santa maria maggiore

[Nathan Ross]

do you think it could be hamata instead?

It could be mail or scale, yes - but 173AD is a little late for a fitted hamata with shoulder doublings. There's still a residual belief, I think, that ordinary soldiers did not use the musculata, and so anything that looks like one gets labelled as mail or scale with 'painted on details'. But it might just be easier to assume that it's intended to be exactly what it looks like...

This is something I've pondered on as there are a number of Late Roman depictions of infantry and cavalry wearing this type of helmet. A classic example is on page 291 of Vol 2 of The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare.

This is an old saw of mine, that I periodically bore people with - this ancient thread from 7 years ago has a lot of my waffling on the subject, but unfortunately most of image links are now broken.

Suffice to say, these odd helmets turn up a lot, as you say, from Ares in c.180, and Aelius Septimus (above) at around the same time, via the Dura Europos frescoes and the Arch of Constantine through to the Fifth century, and Egypt (bottom of page). I still maintain that they represent some distinct helmet typology, currently unknown in the archeological record, but widely used by the Roman army from the late 2nd century onwards.

However, as this thread is about the musculata, we should perhaps leave the odd helmets alone for now mile:

- Nathan

[Sulla]

By the way what images from roman paintings do we have a musculata? I remember seeing some but its been a while.

[ValentinianVictrix]

By the way what images from roman paintings do we have a musculata? I remember seeing some but its been a while.

I can only say that from my knowledge of Late Roman ones that there are a fair few number of both mosaic and wall/tomb paintings depicting officers and ordinary infantry in muscle cuirasses. The Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore panels show some, including what appears to be an officer in an iron one (the cuirasse is blue in colour).

[Sulla]

What about early ones from the first century AD.