Bearskin or wolfskin?

[M. Demetrius]

Would leopards have been imported, then? Doesn't seem like a European cat, but I'm not up on cat history.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I seem to recall they had them in persia? I am sure have seen them depicted on picture of Alexander, but could be wrong....
Eastern med, egypt, n.africa would be sources.

[M. Demetrius]

Some American Black Bears are actually brown in color. Are any European Brown Bears ever other shades of color?

I'm concluding that if a Vexilifer or other is to wear a skin, the consensus is that it most likely ought to be a brown bear of suitably small size, probably with the skull and top jaw still attached, right? It's just as correct to wear no skin, but just a helmet of correct style for the era, yes?

[Gaius]

The current geographic distribution of leopards includes isolated populations in Africa and Asia, with no genetic interchange between Asian and African leopards, but in Roman times this distribution were likely almost continuous (sure in Alexander epoch), so maybe Persian leopards were traded into roman territory. It is probable than in Alexander times there were big cats, including lions, very near to Europe, in the Near East, Turkey, etc. The demise of the genus Panthera in Europe is very, very, recent; what we today envision as "African" faunas are the populational remains of animals that once were part of European faunas until very recent times.

American Black Bear can be white, black and several shades of brown; as i noted before, European Brown bear is also variable not only in fur color, but also in size.

Valete

[Marcus Mummius]

I'm concluding that if a Vexilifer or other is to wear a skin, the consensus is that it most likely ought to be a brown bear of suitably small size, probably with the skull and top jaw still attached, right? It's just as correct to wear no skin, but just a helmet of correct style for the era, yes?

For me if a pelt is worn, it should be a mammal with round ears (european bear variety or pathera).

A vexilifer is mostly depicted without pelt, but in rare cases with one.

I don't know if the top skull should be left in or not... This pelt for example:


I think it has no skull but could be usable if attached on top of the helmet.

Vale,

[M. Demetrius]

OK, so the probably attachment method would be...a chin strap, supplemented by the crossed forlegs? (Hmm. If it's the fore legs, and it's a skin, would it be a...?? Naaah. Never mind)

[Marcus Mummius]

I was wondering, is there a depiction of the back of a skin wearing signifer or cornicen?

Do we know if the hind legs and tail were still attached?

Vale,

[maius]

OK, so the probably attachment method would be...a chin strap, supplemented by the crossed forlegs? (Hmm. If it's the fore legs, and it's a skin, would it be a...?? Naaah. Never mind)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Maius/Bill

[Magnus]

LOL

[Crispvs]

I think I recall seeing a picture of a sculpture some years ago which showed a standard bearer who appeared to be wearing a bearskin with the forelegs tied around his neck and the hind legs tied around his waist. I am not sure where that sculpture came from though. Maybe someone else can help.
Incidentally, our vexilifer wears a wolfskin and has built a wire attachment into it which he uses to attach the skin to the crest fittings on his helmet. Obviously there in no evidence for this but it certainly seems a valid possibility for an attachment method.

Crispvs

[Tarbicus]

I think I recall seeing a picture of a sculpture some years ago which showed a standard bearer who appeared to be wearing a bearskin with the forelegs tied around his neck and the hind legs tied around his waist. I am not sure where that sculpture came from though. Maybe someone else can help.

It's in an Osprey book, I'm sure. Ross Cowan or Nick Sekunda?

[M.H. White]

So maybe I'm just dim, but I've been having trouble finding any brown bear skins online.

(I need one also; I am to become our group's new signifier.)

[M. Demetrius]

All right, slightly changing direction, if that's allowed...

For velites, who DID evidently wear wolf skins over (or possibly instead of) helmets, what color is common for European wolves that might have been used? There's a wide range of colors in the US, depending on where that animal lives, and what time of year. Grey or greyish brown seem to be the most common here, how about there?

[Caius Fabius]

The wolves in the zoo in Lithuiania that I saw last month were grey and yellowish, looked almost like large coyotes. I guess you should get someone to visit all the zoos in the Roman Empire area and take photos.

On my travels I saw a group that used wolfskins for all their musicians and standard bearers, I was going to ask them about their sources for that, until I noticed the leather segmentata..... :o lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

sigh

[M. Demetrius]

What? Leather segs aren't accurate?? Does Hollywood know this? Wow! That's gonna upset some people when they find out ---

:roll: