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Flavius Promotus · 12-14-2003, 03:57 PM

Since we are currently trying to build up a small group of reenactors, we are looking for a place from where we can get a legionary eagle (preferrably one of good quality). 
Can anybody help us ? 
 
Furthermore, we could need a wolfskin - but, alas, don't know where to buy one. 
Is it possible to use a bearskin, either, or is there no evidence for Roman signiferi or aquiliferi having worn bearskins ??? 
 
Greetings, 
FLAVIUS PROMOTUS

12-15-2003, 02:33 AM

You can find a good assortment of eagles on e-bay keyword "brass eagle" 
Wolf skin any type at 
www.hideandfur.com/ 
 
I hope this helps

Aluscladiusmaximus · 12-15-2003, 04:42 PM

As I understand it 
The Signifer wears a Bear 
The Cornican wears a wolf 
The Wexillium wears a wolf 
The Imagnifer wears a Bear 
and the Aquilifer wears a Lion 
 
It is worth noting that the eagle generally didn't leave the base where the legion was based unless the whole legion went with it so 8 legionaries and an eagle is wrong 5500 legionaries and an eagle is right. 
for smaller numbers a wexillium or signum 
depending on where you live you may have trouble importing wolf or bear skins. If you are in the USA you should have no trouble ,if in the UK you will have trouble, as you will need a license to import skins of what they may consider to be an endangered species. 
 
[url=http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/photo_gallery.htm" target="top]www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/photo_gallery.htm[/url] 
has pictures of standard bearers and their skins 
 
Aluscladiumsmaximus

12-16-2003, 02:43 PM

Ok, that's the rule for the Ermine Street Guard, but what makes you believe that rule holds in general? I'll have to check my references. It's my understanding that our primary source of information on this topic, the sculptural references, isn't clear as to what kind of skin was worn by whom.

12-17-2003, 03:59 PM

I hate to rain on your parade Alus, but as reenactors one of our jobs is to educate the public through demonstrations and displays. As such, having over 5000 troops is rediculous, but having a varied cross section of Roman military members and accoutrements is a testament to a group's flexibility and ingenuity. So what is "right" for your world might be fine with you, but others I am sure see things differently. Neuralmancer is also correct, your associations of animal hide types with rank is speculative, and based mostly on sculpture. We have no hard evidence of this either way. All we know "for sure" is that the more important standard, the more "Exotic" the skin, but this was likely heavily influenced by the types of animals found in certain regions. 
 
Flavius, do as Rusty says regarding Ebay and brass eagles. We snagged an awesome one with the wings even in the proper position, and it was very inexpensive. From there, you can probably make the rest of it (base, bolts, wreath, pole, etc.) 
Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I 
 
"Lay your hand, or thy tongue against the greatness of Rome, and feel my wrath." - Matt Lanteigne 
 
- Number of posts: current +1248

Aluscladiusmaximus · 12-18-2003, 10:59 AM

Since an eagle was never carried by less than a legion it is wrong to show it carried by eight soldiers. If you have one in your display tent then that is informative if you parade it then it is not informative unless you tell the public it wouldn't be carried unless the whole legion was there. You should try to be historically correct if you claim to be educational. 
I know that no-one is going to have 5500 romans ( although it would be nice) My point is it gives the public the wrong impression of what actually happened. 
 
 
Aluscladiousmaximus

Matthew Amt · 12-18-2003, 02:48 PM

Well, if you SAY you are something you are not, that would be misinforming the audience. But if you only have 5 reenactors and want to show a number of different Roman soldiers, such as a centurion, a tribune, a cornicen, an aquilifer, and one legionary, what's wrong with that? It gives the audience a LOT more information than just showing them 5 legionaries. Education, right? A cross-section of troop types is just another way of doing things, and far more practical for smaller groups. 
 
Besides, even if you had 5000 legionaries, wouldn't it be "wrong" to display them without a good 100,000 civilians and a reconstructed city and fortress? 
 
And this is a hobby, which we are supposed to use (at least to some degree) to bring our own personal interests to life. So I always try to let people do what they WANT to do, as long as it is accurately done. We should do whatever bits and pieces we can do well. 
 
Vale, 
 
Matthew/Quintus, Legio XX 
 
PS: Not to get back on topic or anything, but isn't the lion pelt thought to be restricted to Praetorian use? If it is shown on legionaries, then I'm mis-remembering.

Crispvs · 12-18-2003, 09:04 PM

Alus, 
When you talk about a 'display tent' what do you mean? At our displays we have a military area, containing military tents and equipment. I would call these 'display' tents as they are used as part of our display to give the public a greater feel for the period. Our civilian section also has tents. The public are left in no doubt that these tents are not to be taken as literal images of ancient life, but instead form convenient, portable booths in which each member can display a different aspect of Romano-British life without fear of being soaked by the rain. These latter tents are not reproductions of Roman tents but are still very much display tents. I think then, that both different types of display tent are, in their own way, accurate. 
What I do not find to be right is the siting of a large modern tent used for display boards and the like, set within, and dominating a supposedly historically accurate military campsite, such as that used by a well known, long standing Roman re-enactment group. 
 
Crispvs

12-18-2003, 11:35 PM

I totally agree with Matt Amt. It's better to show the public a range of people/units/ranks/et cetera than to have [5] of the same people. I've been very slowly gaining information and equipment to represent an Aquilifer of the Marian era, and I'm only ONE Roman dude. I'm currently presenting a Legionare of the 1st Century AD, and I barely fit in enough information in a 30 minute presentation as it is. 
 
*My 'dream' idea is to have 2 presentations, 1: the current Roman presentation (1st cent. kit; overall arms and armor and soldier lecture), and 2: an Aquilifer during/after Marius' reforms, focusing on the symbolism, Repub. vs Principate Army structures, and reforms themselves rather than just a general arms and armor overview; more of an impression vs a presentation* 
 
I'm really going for the Aquilifer mainly beacuse it has to do with a silver/gold Eagle standard, that's just too darn cool for me. But who better to talk about the changes in the Roman army and why the Roman army was so incredible than one of the most important soldiers in a Legion itself? 
 
but I'm getting way off track here. I don't think it's such a big deal to have an Aquilifer in a small group, just make sure you have your information correct and that the public understands it's a wide swash of units/soldiers. I totally agree with Matt Amt, you get more info with more variety. And this is supposed to be fun; the public is supposed to see you're really into this stuff and see how enthusiastic you are about learning and researching and presenting it all in an exciting, accurate, and engaging manner. 
 
but quickly back on Aquilifer equipment and the animal skins, do we know if the skins were a specific item they had to wear, as part of the rank, or was it optional? And do we know when the skins were worn/introduced? Would, say, an Aquilifer from 100's BC have feathers on the sides of the helmet? 
 
valete 
ANDY

**Robert Vermaat** · 12-19-2003, 12:09 AM

Alus, 
That's all very nice in theory, but I bet you guys don't field at least a century of men on parade before showing the public a centurion? I don't know which group you belong to, but something tells me you are not a group made up only of legionaries.. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

Aluscladiusmaximus · 12-19-2003, 09:41 AM

Quote:<hr>Besides, even if you had 5000 legionaries, wouldn't it be "wrong" to display them without a good 100,000 civilians and a reconstructed city and fortress?<hr> 
 
The roman army went to war and that meant they marched through the countryside so you don't need anything else other than 5500 legionaries. ( this is a bit of a pointless argument as we wont see 5500 roman re-enactors in one place in my lifetime) 
 
 
Quote:<hr>But if you only have 5 re-enactors and want to show a number of different Roman soldiers, such as a centurion, a tribune, a cornicen, an aquilifer, and one legionary, what's wrong with that? It gives the audience a LOT more information than just showing them 5 legionaries. Education, right? A cross-section of troop types is just another way of doing things, and far more practical for smaller groups.<hr> 
 
This is a very good point and I agree if you only have 5 members then showing 5 different type of solder is more informative and not a bad way of doing things at all; What I was saying is wrong is parading 8 legionaries and an eagle without telling the public that this would not have happened in the roman army 
 
Quote:<hr>When you talk about a 'display tent' what do you mean? At our displays we have a military area, containing military tents and equipment. I would call these 'display' tents as they are used as part of our display to give the public a greater feel for the period<hr> 
 
What I mean by a display tent is a portable structure which is used to display artifacts to the public. I was thinking of the LEG II AVG in the UK. They had tents to display equipment in. One was civilian and the other was military. Military items which weren't going to be used in the marching display were kept in the tent to show to the public. The last time I heard LEG II AVG had turned the tents into "sets" by replacing the canvas walls with solid boards painted to look like roman walls. I was not referring to tents which are part of the static display such as the conterburiam tents. 
 
Quote:<hr>What I do not find to be right is the siting of a large modern tent used for display boards and the like, set within, and dominating a supposedly historically accurate military campsite, such as that used by a well known, long standing Roman re-enactment group.<hr> 
 
as I understand it the large tent is about the right size and shape for an officers tent so is not so much out of place. 
 
Quote:<hr>That's all very nice in theory, but I bet you guys don't field at least a century of men on parade before showing the public a centurion? I don't know which group you belong to, but something tells me you are not a group made up only of legionaries<hr>.. 
 
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with a centurion and even only two other soldiers, The other standards might well be paraded with less than a century but an eagle wasn't.

12-19-2003, 02:17 PM

Quote:<hr>The roman army went to war and that meant they marched through the countryside so you don't need anything else other than 5500 legionaries. ( this is a bit of a pointless argument as we wont see 5500 roman re-enactors in one place in my lifetime)<hr> 
 
Not necessarily. Vexillations, detachments, skirmishing units, and certainly small groups of soldiers after a battle has gone poorly for the Romans (ie. Varus), could be seen at any given time. Not to mention this would also mean that there would be 60 scorpion artillery pieces per legion, and what, 120 or so Cavalry? 
 
Every event I've gone to, I've yet to have someone come up and say "Hey, aren't there supposed to be more of you guys, if you're an army?" I think the reality of the public just doesn't work that way. 
 
Quote:<hr>What I was saying is wrong is parading 8 legionaries and an eagle without telling the public that this would not have happened in the roman army<hr> 
 
That would indicate that some legions are misleading the public. I don't think that's the case, and certainly I've never seen that here, nor heard of it. 
 
Quote:<hr>There is nothing fundamentally wrong with a centurion and even only two other soldiers, The other standards might well be paraded with less than a century but an eagle wasn't.<hr> 
 
So again you're stuck on the "an Eagle and 5500 men or nothing" ideal, which sounds to me that you've missed the point of our debate here. A simple explanation to the public, or even a diagram of a roman legion as per Connolly's "Greece and Rome at War" would do the job quite nicely. So I fail to see how this is a problem. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Coh I 
 
"Lay your hand, or thy tongue against the greatness of Rome, and feel my wrath." - Matt Lanteigne 
 
- Number of posts: current +1248

12-20-2003, 05:41 PM

Another idea is to find a way to include public volunteers/victims to stand in to make up ranks. If you were just a group of 5, let's just say 3 legionares and a Centurio, all you then need to do is convince 5 other people to stand in and you have a contuburnium...Then since other people will see public getting invloved, they'll want to join it too, and if you happen to have enough public, it's possible to have a Centura! Well, let's just shoot for a contuburnia or two...Either way, the Centruio has an excuse to enact some authority and discipline. 
 
Of course, you don't need to actually equip them with anything (altho an idea could be to make cheapo thick cardboard scuta, maybe even gladii; which would be great for kids?) 
 
I'm trying to incorporate more audience participation in my own programs. right now I have some hapless kids in the front row come up and model 2 Roman helmets (which covers thier eyes, muahaha) and sometimes if I have time I'll have an [older] person come up, hold one of the shields, and I'll stand right next to them and show why the Gladius is on the right instead of the left, and show how the shields can be used. 
 
Anyways, it goes back to what Matt Amt and I have said, variety is good, and as long as you explain why there are only [5] in your group and there would obviously be more soldiers involved, you should be able to get people to understand. And hopefully you'll recruit some more volunteers for your group at the same time!

Crispvs · 12-21-2003, 02:23 AM

I would be wary of inviting members of the public to join in the ranks. It sounds good in theory but doesn't tend to go down well with insurance companies and can lead to accidents. One group here in Britain does do this on a relatively regular basis and is currently being sued (or the suit may be over now - I'm not sure) by a man who was injured whilst in kit given to him to wear for the day without having recieved proper training. Our insurance expressly forbids this. I haven't seen any instructions on drill or the safe use of kit on the display boards in the large modern tent this other group put in their encampment (which I remain to be convinced looks like a centurio's tent). 
 
Crispvs

12-21-2003, 10:20 AM

Ave, 
 
Going back to the original topic; were does the idea of the lionskin for the aquilifer come from? On the tombstones of various aqulifers they are never shown with a lionskin. 
Could some-one enlighten me? 
 
Valete, 
 
Gaivs Civilis

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