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+--- Thread: Speaking of Cannae... (/showthread.php?tid=17251)
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - M. Demetrius - 08-05-2010
What's the first book, and is it still available?
Speaking of Cannae... - ParthianBow - 08-06-2010
None of them have been published yet! I'm nearly finished Soldier of Carthage, which is the first book, and concerns two main protagonists, a young Carthaginian and a young Roman, who meet and become friends just as the war is about to start. They're swept apart by the war, but will remain friends somehow. The book ends around the time of the battle of the Trebbia. It will be published in the UK in 2011 (there's no US publication date yet, unfortunately.) Legionary, which is the second book, takes up where the first ends, and continues to Cannae. It comes out in 2012. The third book, working title The Final Battle, somehow has to concertina the rest of the war into one volume.
? shock: (I am negotiating with my editor to have a fourth book to do this properly, but that will depend on sales, I think.)
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Narukami - 08-06-2010
Quote:I guess it depends upon how we define the total numerical strength of the “Roman Army” at that time. Do we count Latin allies and other auxiliaries? Do we trust the numbers the writers give us? Livy himself admits that his sources vary and he himself is unsure.
Even if we could come to a decision on what constituted the "Roman Army", I think it would be very difficult to come to a reliable estimate.
Quite right, and I was afraid I was asking one of those great unanswerable questions.
My thought would be to consider the Romany Army to consist of the Roman Legions and the Latin allies. But perhaps that it too narrow?
However we might define the "Roman Army" I do think it is not an exaggeration to say that the losses as Cannae were both devastating and a substantial loss of Roman military manpower. People love percentages so I was just looking for an easy to grasp hook that the public might readily understand.
Dithrambus -- I have not read the book. I do have Goldsworthy's book (c2001 ISBN: 0-304-35714-6) and I may pick this one up, but I have several others on my reading list so it will be some time before I would get around to reading it.
Yes, Hannibal with Victor Mature is about the only Hollywood made film that deals with this battle. The "still in development hell" Vin Diesel film about Hannibal may have included Cannae, but then again maybe not.
I wonder if the Battle of Zama might not make for a better film?
:?
Narukami
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Gaius Decius Aquilius - 08-06-2010
I have heard some strange thing about the Vin Diesel film. Things like everbody speaks the wrong language, and there is the typical imposition of a modern moral agenda tp replace anything factual that might be awkward on inconvienient. But when it is released, we all might be surprised. I might mention also the 1937 Italian film 'Scipio Africanus (The Defeat of Hanibal)' which is also available on DVD. I have not seen it and keep forgetting to order it, which I will fix this comming week. I am sure, however, it will have the agenda of it's time... but... so did 'Battleship Potimkin'. It was still a great film.
Ralph
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Ron Andrea - 08-06-2010
I remember Hannibal. Cannae was certainly depicted as a bloody slaughter. Appropriately so forom what you've said.
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Lindsay_Powell - 08-06-2010
There's an interview with the author also on Bloomberg with a link to a podcast at:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-0 ... apham.html
He covers:
1. Militarized Rome
2. Hannibal in Italy
3. Laying the Trap
4. Roman Reaction
5. Cannae’s Mystique
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Caratacus - 08-07-2010
A couple of years ago there was a 'biopic' produced on the life of Hannibal. It 'starred' Alexander Sidig (of Star Trek DS9 fame - where he played the doctor part) in the title role. There was quite a long sequence in it about the Battle of Cannae, culminating in a final sequence which showed the field covered in Roman dead.
I'm surprised that (according to some of the above posts) the Americans have not heard of this battle! It is one of those that all military historians come across because of its seminal use of tactics - drawing forward a superior enemy until his advantage in numbers is countered by his inability to use them. They are then surrounded and destroyed. "Stormin' Norman" Schwartzkof (spelling may not be right there - sorry) used this (modified) strategy in Gulf War I. Worked there too!
Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Ron Andrea - 08-07-2010
Most Americans have little sense of history. That little is focused--obsessively?--America. And most of that is wrong: drawn from movies, television and the blogosphere. That's part of the reason American and her government has difficulty meaningfully engaging the rest of the world. A twentieth century American politician ("Tip" O'Neill) said "All politics is local." (I offer this opinion as one who majored in History and Political Science in college, served thirty plus years in the military, and has tried toi stay informed and engaged as a voter for over forty years.) Please don't chastise me for hating my country; I don't. I love my country, but we have an almost fatal case of myopia: shortsighted in both time and geography.
Rome was a TV series, not a real place or culture. Hannibal was a movie cannibal. Cannae? Most Americans, if they associate anything with that word, think of the movie festival.
RAT serves the very real and laudable function of opening a window for many Americans (and others) into an intelligent inquiry and dialogue about subjects which are never addressed in our mass media. It also brings together a variety of intelligent, dedicated (obsessed?) people who would never hope to converse otherwise.
Hail, RAT! Laudes for everyone!
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - M. Demetrius - 08-07-2010
Quote:Americans have not heard of this battleSome Americans can read, you know. And anyway, "Cannae" is one of the battles packaged in Rome, Total War, so of course we know about it, duh. BTW, I've played that one several times, and never won yet. Bad position, too darned many Carthagenians already in position. Ugh.
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Gaius Julius Caesar - 08-07-2010
Reminds me of a conversation with a girl in a bar in Montana many years ago........
Girl - " Where have you come from?"
Me - "I've come from Scotland!"
Girl - " And where is that, I've never heard of it....?"
Me - Ahhhh, just north of England......... :o ?: :?: "
Girl - Ahhhh, you mean over by New York.......
Me - Finished beer and game of pool rapidly........
No offense meant though, but a very true story.
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Ron Andrea - 08-07-2010
That's right: computer games are another way American learn things. :wink:
And here I live in central Virginia on "Old Scotland Road".
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Dithrambus - 08-07-2010
Quote:Dithrambus:3ipu35wj Wrote:The author states in the interview with John Stewart that the Roman casulties in one days fighting at Cannae where greater than the total American losses in the Vietnam War, which were: 58, 159, Is he exaggerating a bit in that statement?
Not if you take what's commonly accepted: that the Romans lost well over 50,000 men killed at the battle. It was one of, if not the most, bloody battle(s) to take place until those of the First and Second World Wars. And obviously there were no firearms involved. The ancient sources tell us that the killing went on until two hours after dark, and that the Carthaginian troops, who had entirely surrounded the Romans, took regular breaks between killing. By the end, the soldiers were red from head to toe in blood, and the horses were covered in it from the bottoms of their necks to their hooves.hock:
I will have the privilege of describing the battle in Legionary, the second book of my trilogy about the second Punic war. To do so will fulfil a long-held dream of mine. I just hope I do it justice. I've allocated four chapters to the battle itself, which could be about 28-32,000 words.
Thanks Ben, I will look forward to reading your book(s)!
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Astiryu1 - 08-07-2010
Quote:RAT serves the very real and laudable function of opening a window for many Americans (and others) into an intelligent inquiry and dialogue about subjects which are never addressed in our mass media. It also brings together a variety of intelligent, dedicated (obsessed?) people who would never hope to converse otherwise.
I second the motion...
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Gaius Decius Aquilius - 08-07-2010
Quote:I'm surprised that (according to some of the above posts) the Americans have not heard of this battle! It is one of those that all military historians come across because of its seminal use of tactics
(Caratacus)
Excuse this digression, but I want to address Caractscus's coment which iluminates a national shortcoming.
After some long discussions with a number of teachers, this is my general conclusion, and other may not share it: I think you have to understand the American public school system here. History is simply not a priority. Textbooks are highly sanitized, and oversimplified to the point of being misleading. Teaching is less about factual knowledge than an enculturation to a set of values. Many teachers see that as their primary purpose, and they are rightly or wrongly dedicated to it. There is a strong emphasis on what things should be, less than what they are, or have been. "War is bad. It should not be studied. The Romans were oppressive, they should not be studied." The agenda is simply an attempt at socio-cultural engineering. When I was in graduate school, in the late 70s and early 80s all the jokes were on education majors who were regarded as not bright enough to study anything else. The School administration here is generally considered to be inept, and the school board is run by elected officials, many of which have dubious qualifications. The result is an emphasis on the political short term, and white-washing short comings in both the curriculum and in the quality of personnel at all levels. When I was working in law enforcement, I found the behavior of a significant part of our local administration to be unethical, hypocritical, and in many cases borderline criminal. In too many cases it was criminal. I found this group hard to investigate due to the uncooperative attitude towards law enforcement, and the misconception that school policy was above state law, which it is not.
In my area, the High School graduation rate is between 53% and 59%. Of the ones who do graduate, about 25% are considered functionally illiterate. So there is no wonder that no one ever heard of Carthage, or Hannibal, much less Cannae.
Higher educational institutions are different. You can match them with the best anywhere. History is a very popular area, with students who are enthusiastic. I do think that this enthusiasm comes from learning things that the public school system neglected. The material is not sanitized, and debate is encouraged, whereas in the public schools, it is functionally obstructed, or moderated to fit only approved perspectives. There is a widespread acceptance that too many incoming students have not been prepared well enough, so there are a huge number of remedial programs to make up for the poor public school system.
Frankly, I think that the only way to remedy the failure of the American system is open and public criticism. Sometimes ridicule has a place also. Unfortunately, the only time when may see progress, is when change is forced through outrage when enough disclosures are made public.
I also applauded forums like this where interested parties can have discussion, and make information available to students who should have had it readily available but did not though shortcomings of the institutions who are inadequate to the task they are supposed to do.
Thanks for this tangental discussion, which is off the thread topic.
Ralph
Re: Speaking of Cannae... - Caratacus - 08-07-2010
Quote:Reminds me of a conversation with a girl in a bar in Montana many years ago........
Oh come on! Montana? Even Custer got lost there - and he had a whole cavalry regiment to set him right. :lol:
Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)