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Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - Robert Vermaat - 01-28-2009
Hi Christian,
Quote: Summary in English:
Quote:Roman swords and Roman sword sheath accoutrements are to be found particularly often in these complexes In this context, they represent weapons of high technical value which were absolutely necessary as the basic equipment of a unit effective in combat. The Teutonic principes must have been to a high degree dependent on the import of these weapons.
Again, no contest about imported weapons, but beside my point. My point was and is: if the battlefield site now under discussion indeed shows much more Roman items that Germanic ones, that it’s not logical to explain this number of Roman artefacts as imported or otherwise acquired Roman goods. Like I said earlier: if the Roman items outweigh the Germanic items (as seems to be the case here) it would go against scientific principles to assume, contrary to evidence, that the items were from a Germanic army regardless.
Yes, Germanic warriors fought with Roman weapons and wore Roman armour, belts and brooches. But I’m not for discarding all known principles and assume (mostly due to the unexpected geographical location) that a Germanic army would carry so many Roman items that they outweigh Germanic items on that battlefield. That (as far as I know) is not the common thing on Germanic sites and therefore sounds too much like special pleading to me.
So the question to be asked should (I think) this: why are there so few Germanic finds on the battlefield? I’ve argued that the current scale of Roman finds could (not must) be explained by a Roman army unable to remain longer in the area, and a vanquished Germanic army unable to do anything but disperse. But if both armies had been Germanic, why would the victors have left the battlefield in this state?
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - caiusbeerquitius - 01-28-2009
Quote:if the Roman items outweigh the Germanic items (as seems to be the case here) it would go against scientific principles to assume, contrary to evidence, that the items were from a Germanic army regardless.1. I think methodologically one easily falls for the "Methode Kossinna" in this case.
2. From all the items I have seen from this excavation less than ten can be certainly of Roman origin. That is the tent peg (?), the pilum shank, the cart piece, the coin, the Hippo-sandal, the fragmentary Thekenbeschlag, the axe, and the coin. As has been pointed out by Simplex, the objects may be Streufunde as well. I think there is so far by far not enough information to actually draw certain conclusions about whether Romans were involved or not. AFAIK there is no certain / working typology for spearheads, arrowheads and javelinheads etc. which could actually tell us which objects are clearly Roman or Germanic. Even metallurgical analysis is difficult in this case, for knowing where the iron comes from does not tell us who used it.
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - Robert Vermaat - 01-29-2009
Hi Christian,
Sure, sure, everything is possible and no-one should entrench himself before much more facts are known.
Quote:1. I think methodologically one easily falls for the "Methode Kosinna" in this case.1. Kosinna? Don't know him. I usually go by the method of 'when is swims like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, the first thing I think about is a duck', and not and assorted collection of feathers imported by a small goose with an accent. :mrgreen:
2. From all the items I have seen from this excavation less than ten can be certainly of Roman origin. That is the tent peg (?), the pilum shank, the cart piece, the coin, the Hippo-sandal, the fragmentary Thekenbeschlag, the axe, and the coin. As has been pointed out by Simplex, the objects may be Streufunde as well. I think there is so far by far not enough information to actually draw certain conclusions about whether Romans were involved or not. AFAIK there is no certain / working typology for spearheads, arrowheads and javelinheads etc. which could actually tell us which objects are clearly Roman or Germanic. Even metallurgical analysis is difficult in this case, for knowing where the iron comes from does not tell us who used it.
2. true enough, but then many objects could indeed be Roman, so we can go either way. You’re correct that there are no typology models for throwing weapons, but to draw the conclusion that such remains could be Germanic would be equally unfounded. To me the ballista bolts are the most telling. I’m not prepared to hypothesise that the German tribes could have been using such machines, when other evidence for that is completely lacking.
I'm not happy with the Streufunde explanation. These are tell-tale objects and to explain them as stray finds (Streufunde) is I think not correct. I'm not comparing anyone in particular to Dan Peterson, but do you recall how he tried to explain away Kalkriese as a 'mule station with a Roman wall around it plus at best a shoebox worth of Roman finds'? :oops:
Re: - P. Clodius Secundus - 01-29-2009
Quote:P. Clodius Secundus:161fn9jb Wrote:Sounds like the Germans tried the old Teutoburger Wald ploy. I guess they didn't get the memo about those new carroballistae. Things turn out a lot different when your artillery is able to be brought into action immediately while still mounted.
I guess "they" just couldn´t imagine how the Romans should have brought their carroballistae up that hill. :wink:
On further reading it doesn't appear that they brought the artillery up the hill. They just sent the bolts up and followed up with an infantry assault. :wink: From what they say about the locations of the finds it wasn't a case of a spread out column being attacked, so no Teutoberger II.
It sounds more like they drove the Germans up a hill softened them up with artillery and went in for the kill. That dovetails nicely with the assumption that this might have been part of a punative raid. More like a siege without fortifications than an open-field fight. If they were firing uphill at a steep elevation that would help explain why so many bolt heads were found. When arrows are shot upslope they tend to burrow up under the ground cover and are easily lost. When shot on level ground or downslope they usuallly wind up sticking out of the ground and are easier to find and collect. If That is what happened and these are just the ones not found, how many more might have been fired?
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - caiusbeerquitius - 01-29-2009
Quote:true enough, but then many objects could indeed be Roman, so we can go either way. You’re correct that there are no typology models for throwing weapons, but to draw the conclusion that such remains could be Germanic would be equally unfounded.This is all I want to say, actually. I think it is far too early to draw many of the conclusions that have been drawn.
Quote: I'm not comparing anyone in particular to Dan Peterson, but do you recall how he tried to explain away Kalkriese as a 'mule station with a Roman wall around it plus at best a shoebox worth of Roman finds'? :oops:Yes, I do.
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - Julianus - 02-01-2009
Quote:I think it is more plausible to first of all expect German tribal fighting, especially in regard of the size of the battlefield. The presence of Roman objects at the site does not necessarily imply Roman presence. However, Roman presence cannot be ruled out as well.
We should wait for next session in spring/summer 2009. :wink:
By chance I could contact one of the responsible archaeologists ...
he told me an open question is whether this "battlefield" is only part of a greater armed conflict
which would cover the excavated battlefield hill, the neighbouring hill and the (blocked) pass between the hills.
Few scattered objects on pass level (always used as trade route and military road til today - 2 freeways!)
would point to this conjecture.
Hypothesis:
Massive infantry assaults (on one or two occupated sides of the blocked pass) were needed
to allow main army's ( incl. baggage train) marching-through.
JS :wink:
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - caiusbeerquitius - 02-01-2009
Hi Julianus! Please put your real name into your signature, it´s a forum rule.
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - caiusbeerquitius - 02-01-2009
Quote:Kosinna? Don't know him[url:1w9e9zls]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustaf_Kossinna[/url]
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-02-2009
Was he Greek? :? Sounds similar to my Grandmothers maternal name, but not sure about spelling.
Re: Re: - nithijo - 02-02-2009
Quote:Mar:3iyjthi4 Wrote:P. Clodius Secundus:3iyjthi4 Wrote:Sounds like the Germans tried the old Teutoburger Wald ploy. I guess they didn't get the memo about those new carroballistae. Things turn out a lot different when your artillery is able to be brought into action immediately while still mounted.
I guess "they" just couldn´t imagine how the Romans should have brought their carroballistae up that hill. :wink:
On further reading it doesn't appear that they brought the artillery up the hill. They just sent the bolts up and followed up with an infantry assault. :wink: From what they say about the locations of the finds it wasn't a case of a spread out column being attacked, so no Teutoberger II.
Om another forum this was posted:
"The state that the find
evidence (especially a coin of Commodus and a knife sheath) together
with some C-14 dating suggest a date of around 190-250AD. They
suggest that the campaign may be identified with the Germanic
campaigns of Emperor Maximinus Thrax in 235AD. The article states
that the preservation of the battlefield is so good that various
events such as infantry charges and archer volleys can be
reconstructed. The Romans also used ballistas, possibly hand-held
Scorpions.
They state that the Romans were most likely on their way back to the
south when they found their way blocked, forcing them to make their
way across these hills where the Germanic warriors confronted them.
The Romans, however, seemed to have been able to smash their way
through the Germanics using among others their ballistas. In the
process the Romans may have lost parts of their baggage train."
It looks more like the Romans were on their way back to roman controlled
territory, and that whoever they had been fighting were in good enough
shape to attempt to stop/harass/just see off the romans.
This fits the Maximinos Thrax scenario since the last trans-Rhine roman
control slipped on his watch despite him campaigning in Germania.
BTW If this was roman weapons used in intra germanic fighting you
would expect the high status gear like swords to be reworked according
to germanic taste as we see in the bog finds.
It was only the lower ranks who used unmodified roman gear.
This was probably issued to the ranks by the leaders.
Lance and spearheads used among the germanics were afaik never
made in the empire, so this could be used to settle the question
about roman presence on the site.
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - Eulus - 02-06-2009
Please pardon my interjection. Why is it so difficult to accept that a Roman punitive expedition reached (at least) this point in Germania's interior?
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - caiusbeerquitius - 02-06-2009
EULUS:
You must provide your real name in yourr signature. Please see the forum rules, a link is in my signature below.
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - Mar - 02-09-2009
Quote:Please pardon my interjection. Why is it so difficult to accept that a Roman punitive expedition reached (at least) this point in Germania's interior?
Good question! :mrgreen:
[url:1zxdrmgy]http://www.kalefeld.de/roemerschlacht.asp[/url]
Until now, there has been only one single spearhead, that´s been identified as being of germanic origin. (numbered 522)
So maybe there fought Romans vs. Romans?! :twisted: :wink:
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - caiusbeerquitius - 02-09-2009
Quote:Why is it so difficult to accept that a Roman punitive expedition reached (at least) this point in Germania's interior?It is not difficult. However, to accept something means that certain facts are already established. In this case it is impossible to "accept" it, since it is not really clear (yet).
Quote:Until now, there has been only one single spearhead, that´s been identified as being of germanic origin. (numbered 522)Amazing. How did they do that?
Quote:So maybe there fought Romans vs. Romans?!Could also be the case, yes.
I think first of all we should wait for clearer evidence.
Re: Roman battlefield found deep inside Germany - Mar - 02-10-2009
What further evidence - which would prove Roman presence - should we be waiting for?
Do we have evidence at all, that Germanics also used hipposandals, pila, triple-leaved arrowheads, tent-pegs...?!
The spearhead differs from other ones found on the spot in shape and quality of its material, so its probably of another origin.
Sorry for claiming, it´s been "identified".