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+--- Thread: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus (/showthread.php?tid=11826)
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Tarbicus - 05-03-2008
Those belts and baldrics are different centuries and don't go together at all. What period do you intend to re-enact?
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 05-03-2008
I think about 50 before Christ until 200 after Christ (I don`t know how you say that in English :oops: ) Not the later roman times. The equipment which I want to make looks like the one of Marcus Mummius you have seen at the: show here your roman impression topic. That kind of armour looks best of all
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-04-2008
The Lyon burial was about 200 AD? (ish?)
But definitely not the same era as the kit Marcus wears, that is more first- second ......
The baldric in the earlier period was a strap attached to the gladius scabbard, not a cobination affair like the Lyons baldric/belt combo.
There will be plenty of shots around here of the types used by most re-enactors.
Also for earlier as in BC era, you could just attach the gladius to the belt with no baldric.
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - caiusbeerquitius - 05-04-2008
Usually sheepskin. Look here:
http://www.lederhaus.de/leder/blanklede ... _vegetabil
It`s the "Schafsleder Vegetabil"
Also, think about dyeing or painting the leather before you attach the metal parts. Also some stitching with (coloured) linen thread might be nice.
See also here:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ight=ivory
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 05-04-2008
Tomorrow I will try to go to a shop and buy black or brown leather of a cow. I hope it is authentic isn`t it ?
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Crispvs - 05-09-2008
"I think about 50 before Christ until 200 after Christ"
The plates on your belt and the style of apron fittings would place you securely in the mid first century AD. Belts are probably the items which change most quickly and most known types seen to have been limited to twenty five to fifty years, beofre being replaced by different types. In other words, belts were subject to fashion more perhaps than any other item of military equipment.
"There are even some who suspect the pugio rings were attached directly somehow to the frogs, with no leather between ring and frog (including me, though it's a difficult one to support)."
If that means tied directly to the frogs with no gaps between the frog disks and the suspension rings then I would agree. That would appear to be what the sculptural evidence generally shows. There is no evidence which I know of to support the idea of suspension from two straps as is often to be seen amongst re-enactors.
Crispvs
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 05-20-2008
Thanks.
Does anybody know the percentage of copper and tin in 100gram bronze. I know it is 90% copper and 10% tin now, but what percentages did the romans use for belt parts like a buckle and pugio froggs?
I don`t have found a good person who can mould bronze for me, so I have to do it by myself
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Marcus Mummius - 05-20-2008
Quote:Thanks.
Does anybody know the percentage of copper and tin in 100gram bronze. I know it is 90% copper and 10% tin now, but what percentages did the romans use for belt parts like a buckle and pugio froggs?
I don`t have found a good person who can mould bronze for me, so I have to do it by myself
Military equipment in the 1st century AD was mostly made out of brass (messing) instead of bronze. So this means copper and zinc. For things like bukcles and pugio frogs I'd suggest yellow brass. So brass with a zinc content of about 25-30% should be good I guess.
Vale,
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Matthew Amt - 05-21-2008
As I recall, Roman brass (orichalcum) varied greatly in zinc content, from 4 or 5 percent up to about 25 percent. But anywhere in the 10 to 20 percent range could be called "normal" for belt fittings, probably. Some had some lead as well, and some also had some tin (possibly due to recycling). Most folks just use modern yellow brass (30 percent zinc), but if you can get "low brass", "red brass", or even "commercial bronze" (90/10 copper/ZINC), those are even better.
If you can make cast bronze items, I know some Bronze Age folks who would love to talk to you!
Vale,
Matthew
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 05-24-2008
Ah, gratias.
I think it is not smart if I melt brass. I have heard that there arise toxic gasses. Bronze is also toxic but not like brass. So I have to melt bronze. Which proportion could I use for bronze
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Matthew Amt - 05-24-2008
Quote:I think it is not smart if I melt brass. I have heard that there arise toxic gasses.
Oh, right, zinc fumes are poisonous! Copper and tin aren't quite so bad, but still, it does pay to be careful and use proper protective gear.
Quote:Which proportion could I use for bronze
Again, it varied a lot, but 5 to 10 percent tin should do.
Vale,
Matthew
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 07-20-2008
Facere in progressu est
BTW: did the romans cast iron and put it into a mall to make the pugio blade? (so the pugio blade was not made of one piece of forged iron but it was made of melted iron?
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - sulla felix - 07-21-2008
Unlikely - cast iron is very brittle. Not good for a sword or pugio!
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Magnus - 07-21-2008
Quote:Tomorrow I will try to go to a shop and buy black or brown leather of a cow. I hope it is authentic isn`t it ?
Vegatable tanned leather will come in a light pinkish colour. If it's already black or a brown...avoid it! It's probably chrome tanned and not suitable.
Here's how I secure my pugio..thong to attach the top rings, and two straps for the bottom, cut differently to put the pugio on an angle to grab easier:
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 07-24-2008
Nice stuff magnus. I have bought black leather 2 months ago.
This is the link: http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p239 ... fig062.png I want to make belt plate 2. At the internet I have seen a lot of versions. Some have niello and some plates don`t have it. It is very hard for me to find the original. I have drawned 2 versions for placing the plate. See the red circle. Which of them is right? And did the plate have niello.
![[Image: plaatvoorbeeldmz9.png]](http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7528/plaatvoorbeeldmz9.png)