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+--- Thread: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus (/showthread.php?tid=11826)
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 07-30-2008
I want to use pure copper to make the rivets. It`s very easy to make and melt because you don`t need to mix the metals. And indeed, it is also soft.
Only one thing. I have said it earlier: the zinc in brass is very toxic. When the copper melts the zinc will evaporate. It is more safe for me to cast bronze but the plate was made of brass. What do you think about that. Is it acceptable to use bronze for this?
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Crispvs - 07-30-2008
It may be worth considering the various melting points of the metals you are considering. In general (for reasons I do not really understand, not being a chemist) alloys tend to have lower melting points than the original melting points of their constituent elements. I am not sure if this applies to copper alloys but I am sure someone here can help.
Crispvs
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 07-30-2008
I study chemie, physics etc at school
. I have searched for the melting points of the metals and yes, the alloies have all a melting point below that of copper. The difference is not much, often about 50o Celsius. And Crispus, is it acceptable to use bronze instead of brass for making the hod hill plate?
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Crispvs - 07-30-2008
Not sure. I would suggest sending a PM to Matt Lukes. I think he knows a lot more about this than me. He probably just hasn't noticed this thread yet.
Crispvs
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 07-30-2008
yes, nice idea. I am sending a pm. Thanks for help
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Marcus Mummius - 07-30-2008
Hi Niels,
I think most roman rivets were a cupric alloy with about 5% zinc. So they are nearly pure copper. The difference won't be visible to the naked eye. And I don't think people will start performing micro-XRF on your kit at an event, so don't worry, it's close enough :wink:
The zinc fumes are indeed dangerous. But if done correctly, casting brass in a well ventilated area or outside can be done without ill effect. I however have until now only casted bronze and no brass.
Vale,
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Crispvs - 07-31-2008
I used to cast lead and initially didn't think to buy myself a respirator mask. After feeling a little dizzy the first two or three times, dispite having all of the windows wide open, I decided to buy myself a proper mask with replaceable filter cartridges. I am glad I did because shortly after I realised that I had lost almost my entire sense of smell. It has gradually returned, but now, even seventeen years later I still have the odd day when I smell very little. It actually took seven years for it to be restored enough that I was able to realise that cigarette buts in an ash tray had a smell. I literally had not known (or had completely forgotten).
My strong advice then is get a mask. I don't know exactly what zinc fumes do but if I were you I wouldn't take any chances.
Crispvs
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 08-05-2008
hock: That is a tortue!! hock: Very good idea to get some stuff like a mask to protect my health. I want to place a cooker hood above the place were I melt. Then I will transport the toxic gas into the beautifull nature :x . Maybe it`s a good plan to acquire a mask of a respiration machine and connect it whit a pump, who pumps air to the mask.
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Crispvs - 08-07-2008
Most shops which supply safety equipment should be able to sell you a suitable mask. Make sure that what you get can be fitted with replaceable filter cartridges which come up to the required safety standards. Also make sure that replacement cartridges can easily be obtained and above all, READ THE INSTRUCTIONS. Based on my experience you would probably want to install a fresh filter cartridge each time you need to use the mask. You may even need to change the cartridge part way through your session. When you are buying make sure you tell the shop staff exactly what you need the mask for so that they can tell you what type of filter cartridge would be best for your particular use.
Crispvs
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 12-13-2008
Does anyone have a detailed photograph of the pugio frogs shown at the attachment? I am reproducing the buckles and frogs now, but i can not find a clear photograph of the frogs, especially the discs of it. It seems to be made with several pieces of sheet metal, each with another diameter.
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 12-13-2008
There are made from a disc of metal with the concentric cercles engraved.
You can see a very good reproduction for sale at Peroni's shop:
http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... 028788fc33
http://www.armamentaria.com/store/images/DSCF3324.JPG
I have made a frog for my new belt with engraved lines, and i have used a lathe for made it:
![[Image: DSC05092.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/avitianus/DSC05092.jpg)
You always can made a more plain piece, without the engraved lines.
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - PhilusEstilius - 12-13-2008
I have noticed Cesar that your hinge pin and also those of the Peroni plates appear to be made of bronze and brass, what I have been finding over the years with my metal detector is that most Roman hinge pins were made from iron. I think it comes from the fact that one can draw iron much better than brass or bronze, infact when we look at most originals there are in most cases lots of rust around the ends of the pins extending over the bronze of the plates. I would go for iron much more authentic!!!
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 12-13-2008
Dear Brian,
Some friend of mine, who have digged some military camps at Spain, have told me that sometimes the hinges pins and even the pin of the buckles were made from iron, as you says. But he told me, too, that iron part were of less quality, looking more repairs of the original items.
For the hinge of some of my buckles i have used iron nails, because as you says i look for strengt. Probably in the pugio frogs there are'nt such need for strengt, because the pins do'nt have to support so much forces.
Using bronce or brass, is authentic too...Some pieces preserved used too tbronce or brass pins.
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Latinitas - 12-13-2008
Fore the hinge pin i would use copper, the collor gives a very nice contrast to the yellow brass.
I see that your disc is made of one piece metal, and not of the several pieces? I think i will cast the pugio disc.
Re: Questions about the forging of a pugio and a balteus - Gaius Julius Caesar - 12-13-2008
Copper does not have much strength, Niels.