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+--- Thread: Fencing as a Roman (/showthread.php?tid=7356)
Re: Fencing as a Roman - Tarbicus - 11-13-2006
Quote:No doubt they actually did, but when pointy they're much more likely to slide through a body than snag, as a fencing epee would with it's small blunt tip.
hock: Is that what you want to happen with your fencing gladius?!
Re: Fencing as a Roman - madoc - 11-13-2006
Quote:I have read one description of Roman fighting on foot which mentions crouching low and then leaping up to strike downwards at the opponent. I am sure I have never seen any re-enactors do that!
Good tactic. I use it as do others. Not one that works repeatedly against the same chap though. For re-enactors it's to get above his shield rim and bring your sword onto the shoulder (a target area). In real life, I suppose it's to get a good strike over the rim onto the head.
Quote:explanation for the very narrow pointed blades of some late Roman swords. If they are different do they have another purpose and would it mean a different fighting style?
Oh I see, you are claiming they fight without shields ??
I expect it's long and narrow and pointy for use on horseback; the british army went through periods where the point was considered the best way to use a sword from a horse and then changed it's mind and thought the edge. The issued weapon was changed to follow the thinking. I'd suspect the same was true back then.
swords - Graham Sumner - 11-13-2006
John wrote:
Quote:Oh I see, you are claiming they fight without shields ??
Hi John
I wasn't claiming, I was asking.
Graham.
Re: Fencing as a Roman - richsc - 11-13-2006
Quote:fencing gladius?
No, it would have to be a modified gladius, though I don't know what sort at the moment.
Re: Fencing as a Roman - madoc - 11-13-2006
You'd want to check for the sources with one of the later roman experts here, but I _believe_ that armour was alot less abundant in later periods and only the front ranks would be issued with it. Everyone else would rely on their shields for protection.
Roman fencing school - richsc - 11-15-2006
Some additional thoughts on this: the lame looks like it can be ordered by itself, and perhaps stitched on to pants. I've asked one fencing supply company to see if they're interested in making the pants as they make the jacket already.
If it is stainless steel, that changes what you can wear for armor, so it looks like non-conductive materials would have to represent the segmentata, but still stiff enough to absorb blows.
I think it could mean a subarmalis with just sleeves with lame though.
The helmet would have to be masked so that target areas show up but protected not, not the usual kind of fencing saber mask. I guess the ear hole should be a target: celtic sword right between the ears?
The shield can be wood but the boss would have to be hard rubber or plastic in case you decide to hit the opponents face mask.
I think, as the lame can be in pieces, that there is the potential of scoring differently depending upon where you get hit.
A wireless belt pack could differentiate the target areas, and signal in the helmet to the wearer if he's hit and where, and light up on the back so everyone knows who's hit. Maybe if hit in the arm you don't have to fall dead but you do have to retire from the front. The dead would have to fall instantly and create a footing hazard for everyone else.
Seems to me this can be used for formation fighting as well, with the fellow to your back covering the front, and using the shield to ward off over head blows, as on that one relief. I would hope this system could emphasize teamwork over melee.
I"ve asked a local fencing academy who also do historical (Medieval) styles to see if they'd be interested in helping work this out.
Re: Fencing as a Roman - Martin Wallgren - 11-15-2006
As long as scoring is in place we are talking about a sport. If we want to know how they realy fought we have to do alot of sparring and then do cross references to known fights with blades and without.
When a martial art gets sportified it looses it´s intent and is something else. I would happily try a sport like this but I would regard it as sport and not MARTIAL art.
Just my oppinion.
sport vx martial art - richsc - 11-15-2006
To me, the scoring is a feedback on actual possible hits that the individuals can all see. Seems to me that this is a better way to do historical research as you have a way to control and measure actions that you dont' have with just flaying around. The point of this is to measure death and dismemberment due to various tactics and in real time with groups of people. Mob pushing for example, would merely get you dead faster. There are penalties for bad actions. You could cut yourself with your own sword this way, since your opponent can grab your arm and force it back into your throat. (hm, have to work the pugio into this). In a sense, there would be no rules at all: any way to strike the opponent would be fair. Just have to eliminate false positive electrical hits.
All hypothetical of course; still to be worked out. Perhaps this can be considered a hybrid of sport and martial art.
Things I can see that would be measured:
skill
group vs individual tactics
armor effectiveness
weapons effectiveness
training
other ideas will come out.
Re: Fencing as a Roman - Martin Wallgren - 11-15-2006
How about all grappling and throws. What about the blunt trauma of a elbow, knee, pommel and head. All this would have been in a real fighters reportuar. This is the problem. Too be safe we have to prop us upp with lots of protection and this makes the fighting unrealistic and we will have trouble to learn how much a pommel to the nose is stopping your opponent. Or if you can disable a advesary long enough to kill him of with a kneestomp or kick to the groin.
That´s my problem. I know because I train Historical Martial Arts. And this is always a source of debates. In my group we minimise the protection gear to gloves, headgear and a G-cup just to know how much it hurts on the more healabl parts of the body. And stil we dont go 100% because it is hard to try to hurt friends on will.
But a sport based on Historical fighting would be fun. But it is not the real thing, and one could not say -" I fight as the romans did...".
PS: Laudes for a good discution anyways. DS
physical contact - richsc - 11-15-2006
I see your point on that. I'm not sure martial arts folks would like being covered in metal foil but it's something to consider. The physical contact would present a problem since a knee would have work both ways: hit and be hit: the lame just records hits.
But it would allow for groups to work with some means of reproducible measurement, a control for experimentation. I was thinking shield boss hits would be allowable with a rubber such boss: maybe knee pads would do as well. Need groin protectors then. That's where I was thinking variable hit measurement might be worked out: a cut vs a kill that is.
Re: Fencing as a Roman - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 11-16-2006
what i have experienced in fighting with shield and wooden sword (Roman vs Roman) is that you tend to start moving in circles very quickly, trying to poke your sword from above downwards to your opponent's face, or try to get the shield of your opponent away by hooking it with your own, to try and make the fatal stab, however in doing this you also open your own defence......
difficult to say the least... but interesting!
M.VIB.M.
Re: Fencing as a Roman - TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS - 11-16-2006
Try to hook (by your shield lower edge) suddenly the umbo of your opponent, keeping your shield at about 30° inclined, then push vertically and strongly the opponent shield down to the ground pushing at the same time horizontally on him in a single action: you'll have a lot of room to hit him, pointing your gladius to his face or into the neck slot of the cuirass from above. That's good in the line combat too, of course. In any case it ask for a quick movement, but it works with oval and round shields too.
Valete,
Re: Fencing as a Roman - marsvigilia - 11-16-2006
You can actually get smaller ones. My 7yo son recently started kendo.
Quote:not if you use the smallest 36 inch measure......
the wakizashi size..........
however i would still win form any legionary with only a shinai........
M.VIB.M.
Re: legs too - marsvigilia - 11-16-2006
Years ago I fenced epee. As I recall there was no need for wired suits since the entire body was a legal target. There was a push button on the end of the epee to register hits but it would short out on the hand guard so you wouldn't score hits for hitting the hand guard.
Quote:Yes, have to see if the pants are made in the contact fabric as well. I haven't seen them yet but in epee combat all the body is a target. In sabre everything above the waist is a target, and with the foil you have just the torso I believe.
Re: Fencing as a Roman - richsc - 11-17-2006
Quote:you tend to start moving in circles very quickly,
That's where doing this in groups may have something to do with that. The fellow behind you (presuming celts don't rush through the intervals) will prevent that. One on one fencing/sparring/martial arts is only part of the question for fighting.
I remember from a docu drama on the battle of Culloden where the redcoats said they were trained to bayonet to the diagonal.
I wonder why epee does not use whole body lame since the saber getting hit in the leg knows that's not a point. I suspect more accurate judging in very competitive circumstances?