Phalearae on Standards - Printable Version

Phalearae on Standards - Printable Version

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Re: Phalearae on Standards - Gashford - 12-22-2010

Hello folks

I should caveat this with the following, this is not an area of expertise or something I have given a heap of attention to.

However, whenever I saw a pile of these together in reenactments I always wondered whether the circles were blanks, to be replaced with a specific honour once the group had earnt that particular award. Otherwise the shaft would be bare until populated with awards. I have almost no doubt in my mind that this is wrong but its just something that always crossed my mind whenever I saw them in Roman gatherings.

Hope it helps, even if its just another version of something it can't be it means that we're one step closer to understanding what it is Big Grin

All the best

Re: Phalearae on Standards - Titvs Statilivs Castvs - 12-22-2010

Quote:Hello folks

I should caveat this with the following, this is not an area of expertise or something I have given a heap of attention to.

However, whenever I saw a pile of these together in reenactments I always wondered whether the circles were blanks, to be replaced with a specific honour once the group had earnt that particular award. Otherwise the shaft would be bare until populated with awards. I have almost no doubt in my mind that this is wrong but its just something that always crossed my mind whenever I saw them in Roman gatherings.

Hope it helps, even if its just another version of something it can't be it means that we're one step closer to understanding what it is

All the best

That's something that crossed my mind as well, looking at the coins I spoke about. The same seems to happen there, but it wouldn't make much sense if, indeed, the three phalerae are not the rule.
Not regarding the coins, it also comes to mind, but we also see signa with several phalerae and several awards, if I'm not mistaken, in addition to signa with e.g. only 3 phalerae and no awards.

Re: Phalearae on Standards - M. Demetrius - 12-22-2010

Should I start a separate thread about this:
"I heard from someone a while back that there was an existing disc found. All I remember about it (as I wasn't particularly interested at that time in making any) was that it was round, had a raised "doughnut" around the outer edge and a square hole in the center. Does anyone have any information on that find? Size? Other dimensions?"
"

Re: Phalearae on Standards - arminius - 12-29-2010

A bit off topic – but only a little bit:
Auxiliary cohorts had a signum, agreed.
Legionary cohorts had no signum, also clear.
But it is uncertain if each century or only each maniple had its own signum. I think German scholars are leaning towards the maniple, at least for the early Principate.
I’m really looking forward to the publishing of Dr. Töpfer’s thesis to shed some light on the matter.

Re: Phalearae on Standards - ValentinianVictrix - 12-29-2010

Just a quick observation, but could the disc's represent honours won during a daylight battle, whilst the half moon represent honours during a night attack?

Re: Phalearae on Standards - M. Demetrius - 12-29-2010

Anything could be. I guess I thought that the crescent moon was a nod to Luna, the Moon Goddess, maybe to help protect them during the night. But that could be just my own imagination.

On that, how do we suppose the lunae were attached to the shaft? A welded-on long rivet?

Re: Phalearae on Standards - Gashford - 12-29-2010

If I was asked to attach one and not leave a mark on the front I think I would drill a counter sunk hole and rivet it on then polish the front back down.

Re: Phalearae on Standards - M. Demetrius - 12-29-2010

So you're saying they should be more or less solid, not a bent metal shell? Hadn't thought of that, but that would work. I'd envisioned a repousse' shaped from a flat piece of sheet metal. The countersink method wouldn't work for that.

Re: Phalearae on Standards - Gashford - 12-29-2010

HI there

I am not entirely familiar with the objects other than a couple I have seen on a living history sites, however, I suspect that countersinking might work on the ones I have seen as I don't think they need to withstand too much punishment and the ones I have seen where fairly shallow.

But a deep one might not withstand the punishment too much I guess if it was countersunk unless it was backed with wood or something similar to give it the weight needed to receive the rivet?

Just me guessing though.

Re: Phalearae on Standards - M. Demetrius - 12-31-2010

Thanks, Gash. I'm doing a lot of guessing, too. It all looks so nice and neat on a grave stone, but when you actually want to make one in the real world, things get quite a bit more complicated.

Re: Phalearae on Standards - Rado - 01-01-2011

Salvete omnes
This topic is very interesting for me .I have also open questions here in this research.
I have already once commented this Standards and I apologize that I will repeat ..
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After a long time I was browsing on the ancient fresco and authentic materials to which I have access.I decided to stop my self on the original heraldic flag (Standard) of LEG IIII SCYTHICA.They differ in the combination of symbols than the other legions. Such as combination of Right-handed,vexillum and Imago.Or three emperors bust of Vespasian and sons on the Signum. Also the symbol of the legion in combination with crescent.With making this project on our heraldic flag we will be beyond the accepted standards in the Roman re-enactment. With my brother Dany Boy we decided that it would be very original.

Re: Phalearae on Standards - Rado - 01-01-2011

What exactly are these standards?
Maybe this is part of heraldic flag of the legion itself?
They are not sufficiently well represented! They provide an opportunity for interpretation with this single disc on the Signum and two crescent below each other under the Capricorn.

Re: Phalearae on Standards - Rado - 01-01-2011

Whether is right to put on the top of the Signum beneficiarius? As this model which I prepared.

Re: Phalearae on Standards - Rado - 01-01-2011

These are Phalearae for our Standards which I developed.6 pieces Signum Disc with same size diameter-16,5 cm

Re: Phalearae on Standards - Rado - 01-01-2011

Is it possible Phalearae on Signum to have different sizes? As it shown in these frescoes.

Or this is a decision of the sculpture artist?

But in many coins are also noted gradual reduction on Phalearae on Signum of bottom-up?!