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+--- Thread: late Roman Dished Shields (/showthread.php?tid=6183)
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Re: late Roman Dished Shields - Thiudareiks Flavius - 07-24-2006
Quote:What advantages does having a dished shape give you over a flat one ?
Apart from the ones already mentioned, another advantage I've noticed is the way dished shields seem to distribute the force of heavy blows. As an early Medieval re-enactor, I fought with flat round Viking-style shields for many years. Then a mate of mine decided that the flat, round, plywood shields used by most re-enactors of that period were not very accurate and set out to make some more accurate Anglo-Saxon shields.
After a lot of research and experimentation, he made several concave shields with forged bosses and rawhide rims, covered with several layers of glued linen. We found that they were not only very tough and good at deflecting blows, but they greatly reduced 'jarring' when hit with a very heavy blow.
Flat shields can jar so badly when hit hard that they can make your shield arm go numb or jar the shield out of your hand altogether. But we found these dished shields distributed the force of even the heaviest blow across the face of the shield and could absorb powerful impacts far better than flat shields.
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - caiusbeerquitius - 07-24-2006
Quote:I meant times of crisis when you´d have almost no time at all. I don´t know how much time it takes to make planks dished, or a plank shield dished, but I guess more than a day. Am I wrong?
As the rawhide-whicker shields from Dura, as well as several literary sources, seem to suggest, in such times plank construction was not an option at all. It is very difficult to say how long such a shield needs to be made, however definitely several days, as the glue needs to dry out, then the rawhide / linen needs to dry etc. p.p.
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - Robert Vermaat - 07-24-2006
Quote:As the rawhide-whicker shields from Dura, as well as several literary sources, seem to suggest, in such times plank construction was not an option at all.Whicker? I seem to recall that some of the Dura shields were planked?
But since this process took several days anyway, I guess it would not speed things up significally if a flat shield was constructed instead of a dished one. OK, glad to know.
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - caiusbeerquitius - 07-24-2006
Besides the planked shields there were two or three whicker shields covered with rawhide. They almost certainly were ad hoc fabrications during the siege, however it is difficult to say whether persian or roman. Similar constructions are fragmentary preserved in other areas of the Roman Empire, I think. Have to check back in James´s catalogue tonight.
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS - 07-24-2006
BTW, Caius Tarquitius, my compliments for the fine shields your group showed at the François Gilbert's Saint Romain en Gal event in June! I understand why you did not risk them in combat using simple plywood flat ones!
I was the officer of the Caesar Iulianus with the yellow "flat" round shield of the Reges legion, the pileus pannonicus or the Deurne helmet, scales armour with pteriges and the pectoral medusa with the IULIANE VIVAS dedicatio.
I liked very much your "dedicatio" in latin at the microphone: could you post here the text?
Vale,
Titus
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS - 07-24-2006
Oops, Forgotten again:
TITUS SABATINUS AQUILIUS
aka
Daniele Sabatini
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - Robert Vermaat - 07-24-2006
Quote:Besides the planked shields there were two or three whicker shields covered with rawhide. They almost certainly were ad hoc fabrications during the siege, however it is difficult to say whether persian or roman.Oh, thóse! I assumed these were the Sassanid ones, indeed.
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - caiusbeerquitius - 07-24-2006
Quote:BTW, Caius Tarquitius, my compliments for the fine shields your group showed at the François Gilbert's Saint Romain en Gal event in June! I understand why you did not risk them in combat using simple plywood flat ones!Hi!
I was the officer of the Caesar Iulianus with the yellow "flat" round shield of the Reges legion, the pileus pannonicus or the Deurne helmet, scales armour with pteriges and the pectoral medusa with the IULIANE VIVAS dedicatio.
I liked very much your "dedicatio" in latin at the microphone: could you post here the text?
Thanks!
oops: 
I do not know who has the scrolls at the moment. It was a renuntium and an imperial cult ceremony, both written by Florian. If he should have them at the moment, maybe he can copy the text in here? Florian?
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - caiusbeerquitius - 07-24-2006
I just checked James. The other examples of such shields are Assyrian, and from 5th c. B.C. Altai. The technology as such, however, was known from the Plains Indians to the Zulu, all over the world and is IMO prehistorical. But even a wicker-rawhide shield is not quickly made, as the rawhide needs to be processed, the wicker prepared and "woven", the rawhide then needs to dry. So the best improvised shield is probably a pure wicker variant, as can be expected to have been used by Caesar´s adversaries, having lost their shields to the pila volleys during the Gallic / Helvetian wars, e.g. Such an item could be made over night, and still offers good protection.
As for the plank shield, once more:
Cut tree, dry the wood, cut planks, plain planks, glue together, process rawhide, glue rawhide on, wait until dry and so on: very time consuming, whether flat or not.
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - egfroth - 07-27-2006
As well as the "shock absorber" quality of a dished shield, they also have markedly better visibility - you can see over the top better without sacrificing protection.
From personal experience - I was amazed how much more I could see using a convex shield.
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - Flavius Promotus - 07-27-2006
Titus, I can post our Renuntium if you want me to, but please ask me again next week - we are busy preparing our annual Roman mini-festival
(Regensburg, Rowing Center, this weekend- just in case anybody here is interested - Lusoria erit!!) :wink:
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS - 07-27-2006
Salue Flauius!
I'd have liked to see the Lusoria in action... Maybe next year.
What dates for your event?
About your Renuntium, no hurry, I'll remember to you to post it in September, waiting as usual for the photos of the event.
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX - 07-30-2006
Quote:who had completely different daily lives and lifestyles compared to any of us right through their upbringing. I suspect an auxiliary of 2000 years ago would scoff at the abilities of even a modern Special Forces or SAS guy, especially a Batavian
actually, i did rather exhaustive research on troops from 1700-1900, and some earlier, and all reports indicate that although troops of this time period were strong, and more resilient, they were also likely to be asthmatic, unhealthy, and with bad eyesight.
report for the 10th U.S. cavalry, 1885
pleuracy- 4.3% admission
asthma-6.5%
alchoholism-2.3%
for the 19th U.S. 1864
-lung ailments- 6.7%
it goes on and on down the list of a bunch of units back into history.
the lung ailments come from being around a fire so much, i am at events almost every weekend and have a cough from it. so a modern SAS man with a healthy set of lungs definitely outranks a legionary.
BTW, shields in the 6th c. revert more to flat for the infantry due to a need for tight byzantine formations, nevertheless, some troops carry them well through the 9th c.
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - caiusbeerquitius - 07-30-2006
Quote:BTW, shields in the 6th c. revert more to flat for the infantry due to a need for tight byzantine formations, nevertheless, some troops carry them well through the 9th c.Hi!
Where does this information come from?
Re: late Roman Dished Shields - Theodosius the Great - 08-01-2006
Hi Caius,
Quote:Even if a flat shield actually were better than a dished one: Archaeological evidence strongly supports the theory that most shields were dished.
(e.g. in Illerup more than 98% of the findings, the three shields from Egypt discussed by Goethert etc. p.p.)
When you say "most" were probably dished does that include cavalrymen ? I'm not familiar with the theory. Is it supported by pictorial evidence ?